plane of right forearm
 

Hi Yoda,
In your driving the golfball video,you STRESS making sure your right forearm is on plane before you will even begin your swing. Would you please go into some detail on this. How can I tell it's on plane...Does it change for each club.....type of shot ...etc ...?????

Thanks Thom,
I may get my head bit off,but isn't this similar to what Moe Norman did with the shaft going up the right forearm..or am I missing it ?

Yes it is.

Re: plane of right forearm
 

I know the question is for Yoda but I will attempt to make an answer until he does....

Lets just start with what is a plane of motion. A flat inclined plane (like a pitched roof- glossary) means that this is what the clubshaft travels on. The clubface may open or close but the clubshaft always rests upon it. You may notice that no matter what the incline the base line or plane line remains constant (1-L).

For the right forearm to be on plane and to enable a zero shift stroke the right forearm must be a virtual extension of the club (in the cup of the right hand with no wrist cock...eg moe norman) and since the address starts with the right wrist in a vertical condition means that the right forearm also rests on that plane.

So what is the inclined plane... im glad you asked :lol: .... in the ideal application it is the turned shoulder plane but it can be rotated but in other words it is where your right shoulder is going to turn to.... draw a line from the ball to the place where your right shoulder turns to at the end or top of the backstroke.....

So basically to give a direct answer and sum up - right forearm an virtual extension of the club from side view by the right wrist being in a level condition with no wrist cock and the clubshaft being in the cup of the right hand. The right forearm will then automatically point at the baseline. Then you also point the forearm to the point that your shoulder is going to turn to..... and evola an onplane forearm....

Re: plane of right forearm
 

If you do a right forearm pickup properly, then can't you start with the right arm not on plane because it gets on plane at waist high on the backswing? It's very awkward and the club seems to stand on toe with the right arm on the shaft plane at address. If your elbow is on the plane then you should be ok as long as you don't cock the right wrist. right?

Re: plane of right forearm
 

I'm demonstrating a zero shift here and an onplane right forearm at address......

Re: plane of right forearm
 

Nice pic Mathew! Are you a Hitter or Swinger?

Re: plane of right forearm
 

Wonderful pic Mathew, thanks.


Notice the plane of the hands - the plane that PP#1 travels.

Draw a line from the hands at the top, back down to the hands at address, to the ground.

THAT is what being 'on plane' is about.

The so called 'plane shifts' are only due to what appears to be 'the' things to follow.

Follow your hands. Feel your hands. Feel the pressure points in your hands.

Force must be on plane, it must not 'change' planes, or you give up efficient motion. Force is transmitted through the hands, where the hands meet - PP#1 stays on ITS plane, which is very nearly parallel to the right elbow plane

Re: plane of right forearm
 

Great, clear, concise description for us Basic crowd. The photo is the icing.
Well done. =D>

Charlie

Re: plane of right forearm
 

Thank you Matt,
The pictures clear up a lot of confusion. Would you entertain the thought of explaining the different hinge action with pictures ?

Re: plane of right forearm
 

I think I was loading for hitting on this shot....can do both....

Matthew~

Thanks for the photo and discussion. Hopefully my measurements are close enough and I am not being too precise but here are some observations of the photo positions and a question. Would appreciate your comments or clarification from a zero shift perspective.

1 (O)-A line drawn through the two hand positions to the ground does not intersect the plane line.

2 (O)-The hands at address are below the TSP.

3 (O)-Considering the sweet spot plane and the address shaft plane both pass through the "hands/PP3" and assuming the right forearm rests on the appropriate plane, that plane is flatter than the TSP. Or, the right shoulder turns to a point that is not on the "preselected plane" (ref. 10-13-D).


4(?)-In the downstroke, do the hands return to the address position or move down the TSP?

DRW

Comparing Professional down the line views
 

I have been comparing some down the line views of several pro players on the Redgoat smugmug site and have some observations and questions.
I did not look at all the players but I didn't find any who started with the shaft in line with their right forearm, not even Steve Elkington, unless I am misinterpreting the concept. However almost all of them had the shaft in line with the right forearm at or near impact.
By starting with the shaft and forearm on plane and tracing the plane with PP 3 am I then eliminating extra moves or shifts to get to proper impact?

Steve

Re: Comparing Professional down the line views
 

It's true that most Tour players don't set up with their right forearm on the shaft plane. However, they all get it there at impact. So the way I see it is...why not put it there to begin with? Isn't it easier to get back into that position rather than try to seek it in the downswing?

Gentlemen,
The difference is ... Adjusted Address vs. Impact Fix...If you set up Impact Fix you are setting the right forearm and clubshaft on-plane with each other...If you move the hands back to adjusted address or a MID-BODY LOCATION you will see a difference in the relationship of the clubshaft to the right forearm ... Try it , See it, Do it Again and Again!!!

Food for Thought.... Hittin' Machine Set-up...Impact Fix
Swingin' Machine Set-up ... Adjusted Address
Suggested Reading last sentence of 10-9-A, 10-9-B

"These are just merely "useful" not "have to"

To know the book...Is not just for reading the Book...Rather it is to do what is in the book...DO THE BOOK!!!

Annikan

Re: Comparing Professional down the line views
 

There may be some risk/reward reason to use plane shifts at the Tour level? But a zero shift has to be easier to reproduce once hatched. Even Hogan brought his hands high at the top. Then (while he focused our attention on his left hip), he dropped his hands/club about 6 inches without moving the club, then he started down. This put his hands on the TSP, bent his right wrist and supinated his left wrist. I think that would be tres difficile.

I have had instructors tell to "just let the hands drop from the top". They didn't tell me how or why. Maybe that's what they we're talking about.

I'd rather KISS, and keep at the zero shift. YMMV.

Charlie

I am a little different as I set up for Swinging with "impact hand location" and my right forearm on plane.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Wow talk about a defogger!!! All this time i thought the right forearm had to be on plane even for the mid body hands. So that means that both when hitting and swinging the right forearm starts offplane in the standard address position. If this is correct which it obviously must be then i think there are countless numbers among us that misunderstood.

As a footnote Homer actually states standard address a his preferred procedure for both hitting and swinging in chapter 12. He interestingly mentions 10-9-A Standard being "especially useful" for swinging and 10-9-B for the same hitting however. I wonder how close he was to using the Impact address in chapter 12?


I'm still light headed from finally learning unless we start at impact address the right forearm will not be in line with the shaft.

John

Re: WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Impact fix and standard can both have the right forarm on the same plane.

Re: WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

John~


<<I'm still light headed from finally learning unless we start at impact address the right forearm will not be in line with the shaft. <<

Maybe its the camera angle but 9-2-2#2 and 9-2-3#1 would seem to stimulate a discussion :?:

DRW

Actually you guys are right. We will have to look at it deeper. 9-2-1#2 is even more telling DRW, the forearm is onplane even in the shown mid body adress position. I think we need Annikan back, and Yoda and his apprentice might shed some more light as well when they are available. I love these defogging discussions, so much learning to be had :)

John

Gentlemen,
What ever happened to "USEFUL", BUT NOT HAVE TO IN THE POST I SUBMITTED?
Come on Guys!!! Give us a break here!!! Of Course, if you raise the Plane of the Clubshaft "up" to the plane of the right forearm you CAN have the shaft at Either Impact FIX or AJUSTED ADDRESS depending on your location of your Hands and GRIP TYPE....IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE TECHNICAL YOU MIGHT AS WELL RAISE THE SHAFT PLANE AND ELBOW PLANE UP TO THE SQUARED SHOULDER PLANE.... THERE NOW YOU REALLY CAN SWING WITHOUT A PLANE SHIFT.

Let's settle down and not be so radical, Annikan....Please settle down. don't be so darn "Dogmatic" There can be a flexible approach to learning you know!

Sorry.. Back to Business at Hand!!!!

Some players set a Sharper #3 Accumulator, More Waist Bend and a deeper Knee Bend (Jodie Mudd and Grant Waite) which places the Clubshaft on a "Hands Only" address Plane Angle then sometimes either early, gradually, or later they shift up to the Elbow Plane and then perhaps up to a Turned Shoulder Plane. By choice! They can come down in a variety of ways... depending on their INTENTIONS FOR THE SHOT AT HAND!!!

Or they may set-up with Less #3 Accumulator, Less Waist Bend, and Less Knee Bend (Wayne Levi and Don January) they may shift early to either the Squared Shoulder, Turning Shoulder, or right on up the TURNED SHOULDER and then come down in a wide variety of ways depending on the players INTENTIONS FOR THE SHOT AT HAND.... Confusing....

Bottom Line: Your set-up is determined by your INTENTIONS WITH THE SHOT AT HAND....Learn the Rules ....Apply the Rules!!!!

1-B Treating a complex subject or action as though it were SIMPLE, MULTIPLIES ITS COMPLEXITY because of the difficulty in systematizing missing and unknown factors or elements. Demanding that golf instruction be kept simple does not make it simple - ONLY INCOMPLETE AND INEFFECTIVE....
- Homer Kelley

Studying only "ONE" of the two patterns will not give you an education of this entire beautiful system called"The Golfing Machine" Learn your pattern and "Appreciate" others.


"We only like what we're trained to see!"
-Greg McHatton


What happens when you set-up on the Hands-Only Plane, Elbow Plane, Turned Shoulder, Squared Shoulder? What affects the Clubface, Clubhead, and Clubshaft , the Ball when employing these variations?...That is where the real learning takes place and the machine displays its greatest power
I really do not believe one can only learn the machine by only using just one pattern....Become familiar or to some level of understanding of your own , then "Taste -Test" its variations and select compatible components that are your favorites that must fit your stroke pattern...and YOUR INTENTIONS!!!!

Champions are NOT BORN, THEY ARE MADE!!!!

Annikan

Sorry for any indiscretion Annikan.

Yoda, what are your teachings concerning the RF. Do you teach your students to have it onplane for impact and standard address? Would you pretty much always change it to onplane if so? I know you are very big on the onplane RF and i think you teach it as standard?


Thanks guys :)

John