Can TGM help me ? First post !
 

Gents,

I am not a new member to this Forum - long time reader. Having read some of the posts I do believe there are a lot of golf swing experts here and, therefore, would like to share with my biggest problem and ask for some advices. I am not very familiar with the TGM nomenclature, neither I am in a possession of The Yellow Book, therefore, please forgive me my plain golf language here. BTW, I have posted it here, in the Swingers' Room, since my left part of the body is dominant and if someone asks me about my swing feel - I'd say it's a pulling motion.

My problem is that I simply can't play a fade shot (especially with mid- and short irons) or better said can't obtain a neutral in-to-in swing pattern; I have a strong inside-out swing path (between 3 and 8 degrees) and relatively quick swing tempo (ca. 0.9-1.15 sec depending on the club); my clubhead speed is rather serious (ca. 100-105 with the driver and ca. 85-90 mph with my 5 iron); I play non-offset irons with correct lies. My normal swing with a square or even slightly open face resuts with a draw (sometimes too large one, sometimes a push-draw), opening the stance results in still in-to-out pattern and a strong pull-draw (even worse). Opening the clubface more (up to 10 degrees) causes usually a weak straight push and it's not so comfortable since it's not natural for me to play irons with so open a face. My ball position for short irons is left of the midlle of the stance (below the logo of the shirt).

I was trying to achieve (on purpose) an OTT move and found it very difficult for me; practically, I am able to hit only the driver with a very slight out-to-in swing pattern without a serious endeavour; what is even more interesting, the driver is the only club that I can control and can play either draw or fade on request provided my swing is much slower and much less powerful than usually (on purpose again). I have recently changed my grip from strong to neutral and from interlock to overlapping one, but alas the tendency remained.

Here is my YouTube video of my recent swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EI3SaelOI0


Would be very grateful for sharing with any ideas, thank you in advance. I don't have problems with closing of the clubface, neither with flipping hands - too much DS path from the inside is my all-time problem. I play of 12 hcp...would be in single digits if I have this problem solved. Thanks again gor your help.


Dariusz

Surprized no one has welcomed you yet... so Welcome to the forum....:)

The thing about the geometry of the clubhead orbit is that with a proper impact its travel should be taken downwards and just as importantly outwards.

That means that the impact is not an in-to-in affair.

If you imagine a big hoola hoop on an incline - your lowest point will be very close to when your left arm and clubshaft are all directly downwards from the left shoulder. Since the ball position should be taken prior to this point it means it is still traveling outwards to the right by a few degrees....

Controlling the ball flight is more a result of clubface control through what is known as a rhythm or hinge action. Also various procedures naturally produce different hinge actions......

Your stroke is like alot you see. You have alot of good things there for sure obviously been playing a while but however lacks a few fundamental concepts which really aren't stressed enough in the world of golf digest and its ilk....lol Your stroke could do with what is called a finish swivel - learn to rotate your left arm around a flat left wrist after impact rather than allowing a bending motion. Im not very convinced your not flipping it either....you might be best to train this with some chips/pitches....some high rough, impact bags....whatever takes your fancy...lol you do this and learn that the secret to this is to maintain the lag pressure (the heavy feeling in your hands) all the way down past impact. Your balance also looks a lil bit suspect. So theres three really important things to work on....

Mathew,

Thanks for the welcome and for your post. I also found it surprising that noone answered my post before after more than 100 views...started to think that I have posted my question in a wrong room :rolleyes:

I am not saying that all three things you mentioned are worth my concern, however, what I lack most is a good info or advice what to do to diminish the downswing path from the inside. I'd be grateful if someone here could enlight me what TGM does recommend only in this particular situation now. My intention is not to rebuild my swing totally this year (maybe next winter).

Cheers

Hi Darius, you live in Europe? House looks bit continental Europe?? Edit - ah yes ... i see POLAND... cool Europe TGM spreads East... communism in reverse!! Traditional instruction is harder to break down that Berlin Wall!!!...ANyway...

Not always easy to tell from videos where the path of the clubhead is but you seem sure that it is in-to-out and stays out... ie. the clubhead may appear to be going straight down the target line (steering)... see what the book says... ( underlined the bits relevant to you, IMHO)

"3-F-7-A. STEERING
is the Number One malfunction - The Bent Left Wrist and Clubhead Throwaway. Any or all of the following faults during Impact may need to be adjusted out - holding:
1. The Clubface square to the Target Line
2. The Clubhead on Target Line
3. The Clubhead on a level or upward path

A very successful and anti-steering therapy is an exaggerated "inside-out" Cut Shot, per 10-5-E. (Study 2-J-3, 2-N and 12-3-39.) You always Swing along the Plane Line but not always along the Flight Line. So Learn to dismiss the Flight Line. Depend on Clubface alignment for direction control (2-J). In fact, learn to execute all Plane Line Variations (10-5) to remove all uncertainty from your Computer (14-0).

3-F-7-B. QUITTING
slows or stops the Hands during Release and is almost always a semi-conscious maneuver to change the Down-and-Out Clubhead Path (2-J-2) to an On-Line Path through Impact, on the mistaken assumption that this is the purpose of the "Wrist Roll" (2-G) and/or "Wrist Bend" (6-D-3) and that such Clubhead control is, somehow, automatic Clubface control. That is a distorted interpretation of Sequenced Release (4-D). This results in:
1. a Bent Plane Line (Steering 4-D-0);
2. a shortening of the Swing Radius (loss of effective Mass);
AND, depending on Impact Hand Location, results in either:
3. a "Down Only" Clubhead Path (deep Divot or "Fat" Hit 1-L-14);
4. an "Up-and-In" Clubhead Path (Topped Shot 2-J-2).



You see how steering and quitting are linked....

If the clubhead is going off plane then how are you squaring the clubface...

options are strong grip, flipping ( bending left wrist at impact) or pivot ( well not pivot for you i suspect because your are off plane)

need to check your grip first... is your grip forcing you to play an abnormal plane line?

Do you have face on video of your swing? check for flipping?

Matthew is saying that IMPACT is an in-to-out experience with the clubhead going down and out fractionally beyond impact AND THEN coming up and inwards.

The clubhead will actually do this if you have a Flat Left wrist and swing "on plane"... ie. the whole of the shaft lies an a flat , inclined plane throughout this time.

Get a piece of MDF board ( 1 metre by 50 cm) and use this as a mini plane poard...see what "on plane" feels like.... remember that TGM asks that you do the correct mechanics and learn your own individual feel from that... If you do this you will probably find that you feel your hands much closer to your bodyjust past impact... i think this is what people call swinging left... you are swinging right too much...

Well , see how you go, remember that i advise only as a professional surgeon and not as a professional golfer!! Would you let Tiger woods operate on your eye....? So take advice from the pros but at least think about what i said...but it is not gospel!

Welcome
 

Welcome to the LBG site:)

Please do not feel that you have to rebuild your swing by considering some changes to your current swing. With some understanding of some of the basics of TGM (swing plane, role of the hands & pivot) you will see improvements and not risk a complete meltdown in your game. It does take time and practice...I was willing to make changes to a swing I have had for a long time that just was not getting any better...and now I am beginning to see that it has been worth stopping, learning and applying and changing...and it has been pain free. These guys on this site really know what they are talking about ...good luck on your journey whatever you consider. We are all working to build a non-compensating swing that makes the best use of the laws of physics and geometry. Homer Kelley was a genius who left us the keys to understanding how the golf swing works. The book itself is impossible to understand without guidance and direction...and its here at this site for the cost of your time.

Thanks for your help. I do appreciate it. My comments in red colour above.

Cheers

Thanks a lot. Although I am not convinced if classifying a human action in thousands of pieces makes sense in the view of molecular microchanges happening in the human organism, I regard the TGM School as very creative.
I just want to try what TGM has to offer as a help with a too inside DS path problem. In simple words. If the knowledge of the Yellow Book is absolutely necessary - I'll consider purchasing and studying it next winter, too less time before new season now.

Cheers

If you could also get a video up with a face-on view of your swing I would be much more certain of my diagnosis.

Thanks,

Matt

Hi Darius

Not meaning to offend poland - i know that your country suffered deeply during 20th century... but just meant that TGM started in USA and spreads East to Poland... Communism started in East and spread West towards you!

I drive past a Polish war memorial on the way to London many times

http://www.ruislip.co.uk/polish/

Britain remembers your countrymen and women!

"Za milosc, mlodosc i dobra awanture" or something like that!!

Back to golf...remember...

Initial ball direction is mainly due to clubface at impact/seperation and not swing path through impact... you have still got clubface issues if you hit draws and push draws with a consistent in-to-out path...

http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/ballflight.php?ref=

Checking clubface issues starts with grip and flip...we need more face on images....

If you get to the stage with your grip changes that you hit straight pushes then work on the swing path more ... and Matthews swivel to hold flat left wrist beyond follow through.

Good luck:)

Hey, GB !

Thanks for nice words.

Initial ball direction is mainly due to clubface at impact/seperation and not swing path through impact... you have still got clubface issues if you hit draws and push draws with a consistent in-to-out path...

http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/ballflight.php?ref=

Checking clubface issues starts with grip and flip...we need more face on images....

Yes, initial ball direction is mainly (85% or so) due to the clubface angle at impact. That's why I mention about my excessive draws and push draws and not about pull-hooks. As I said in my 1st post to play a push is not a big problem - it's just enough to open the clubface more, more or less the same angle as is the angle of my inside DS path.
However, if you close the clubface relative to the DS path angle - you will obtain a draw always. Fade could be obtained only when the clubface is open relatively to the DS path. I need to learn how to diminish my inside angle of DS path since trials to play fade with, say, 6 degrees of the inside DS path and 10 degrees of clubface open angle is ridiculous.

I'll try to post my FO view of the swing tomorrow.

Thanks a lot gents and have a nice Sunday.

Dariusz - you've got a solid motion and as others have indicated, a face on view would help.

That said, it does appear that you are not maintaining the bend in your right wrist/flat left through impact, which results in a closed clubface, a clubface pull/pull hook.

Your backswing looks very solid in many respects. I would recommend you look a bit at your posture. A bit more bend from the hips and knee flex would likely put in you in a much better position such that you aren't forced to straighten out that right wrist to reach impact.

Two drills to work on -

first, try hitting chip shots with only your right hand. Focus on maintaining the bend in your right wrist, and the motion of your right forearm. Use small motions to begin. Try to drive the ball into the ground, from the inside - like kicking a football. Hand ahead. If you have trouble keeping the bend in your right wrist, try putting your left fist between the angle of the grip and the inside of your right forearm to 'lock' that angle.

Second - grip a club all the way down near the clubhead, with the shaft runnig up under your left arm and left side. Make small motions, no higher than hip to hip. If you don't keep that angle in your right wrist, you'll get smacked by the shaft/grip end on the left side of your chest. Focus on the straightening of the right arm, down and out.

Those two drills should get you feeling the bending back of the right wrist. You should find your impact is much more 'solid', and hear a nice 'click' on your chips.

As Mathew mentioned, the next stage after you have those chips down is to learn to rotate that left forearm after impact, so that you can maintain that bent right wrist. Don't be afraid to really rotate it at first. Make the motion, don't worry about the results for now.

As you get this down, you'll be able to use impact to show you the proper alignments (left arm in line with shaft, face on, right forearm in line with shaft, down the line). Practice that impact position, in balance, in front of a mirror.

Edz, thanks for a very informative post and advices. Please read my comments in red below:



Many thanks and cheers.

P.S. I will record and post my face-on swing video a.s.a.p. Alas, the weather conditions made it impossible to do it this weekend...

My take on it is slightly a little different. I feel you got a pretty good swinging and also already doing a little OTT. Evidently your hips did not release ( causes a inward bend plane)and the club is already above the ball on its approach..

Jim Hardy uses a Punch , and Hitting move, thus angled hinging is more natural Your are mixing the physics of golf by swinging using punch elbow ,strong grip , angled hinging thus not being able to fade.

hitting= the assembly pushes the pressure point down the plane . and the pressure point basically stays more behind the club. the arm will have a no roll feel. Total control of the club instead of being controlled by it.

swinging = natural horizontal hinge. The momentum of the club will close the clubface naturally thus we react to the momentum of the club and the pressure points always faces inward and towards ourself. of course when mixing mechanics.. its going to be different.

You got to learn to have to learn the AXE Motion using a more rotary motion. See Ted Fort's hitter motion , understand hitter motion and use them in your "swing" ( More stuart appleby?)

Or you can use your natural swinging motion and use a pitch elbow and a more neutral grip. Open your plane line to play a fade. ( Hogan fights a hook)

both are valid models.

My layman 2 cents worth of tgm + "one plane" swing:)

Thanks, Nuke. I wonder how do you know that I am close to Hardy's OP swing theory ? :)



Sorry for so many questions but this is just my first serious trip into the depth of TGM golf school :)

Cheers

I guess when you mentioned OP you meant Jim Hardy.. He is the one who named the swing One plane , two plane swing.

However in TGM, the world is divided into Swinger and Hitters, right arm and left arm swing, Hand or body controlled swing. Regardless of the quantity of plane TGM use, On Plane is a must to good golf. Thats the beauty of TGM, explaining why things works with the compatible combinations. Beautiful book.

it may be worth to mention that somebody who is a TGM and created quite similar swing components as Jim Hardy. Namely Mac O'grady. His ideal model is pretty close to OP. Yet he have many flight patterns . and his preference is angled hinging too.

Have fun here, I learn tons and I met alot of good people here.

Hmmm...
 

...OK, I have understood 2 important things already:

1. I need to have the Book before going deeply into discussion on this Forum.

2. I need to convert from a Swinger to a Hitter since I've got a lot of Hitter's elements in my motion. *

* I've already started training aimed at activation of my right arm during swing. I need to be an ambidextrous person in golf (funny, because I am 100% right-handed person and in golf I am pulling with my left hand like backhand in tennis). I want to play this season with OP swing - if I can 'activate' my right side, it would be more Hardy style, if not - more Quinton style with passive arms.
I plan to buy and red your TGM Book this year and start to deepen it in late autumn.

The last thing I intend to do here now is to record and post a face-on view video. Weather prognosis here in Poland says that by the end of the week winter is gone for good.

Cheers

Darius...please do not decide on the fact that you want to play "with a one plane swing"...

Where in that book by Jim Hardy does he explain how a one plane swing optimises your impact interval ( the time during which the ball is in contact with your clubhead)... PLEASE ignore the number of planes you have... the crucial thing is the alignments... and you really don't need the book to have a clear understanding of the alignments / imperatives...

a one or 2 plane swing is what the video camera sees ... not what the ball sees!!!!... The ball sees the alignments through impact interval....

I promise you that is what TGM is all about!! We use references to be specific to detail.... but the heart and soul of Homer Kelley's work is :-

3 Imperatives

1.FLAT LEFT WRIST / BENT RIGHT WRIST

2.CLUBHEAD LAG

3.STRAIGHT PLANE LINE

If you have these 3 things and a zillion plane swing ( Hardy's sequel!!!:laughing9 ) then you will have a much better season than if you have a one -plane swing but no understanding of these 3 things...

Really... i can not stress this enough!!!!!!!

PLEASE.... 3 imperatives.... that is all

Lets start a new thread to really get this done....hit or swing ... we will come to this later... remember Nuke started as swinger and then told he was more hitter so his advice may be slightly biased ... as all instruction is!!

BUT 3 imperatives first!!!! please... a crate of your finest vodka delivered to your door if i am wrong about this!!!

Quinton style.. he is a swinger.. and trust me, he roll his arms more than we think. that is why he uses neutral grip. in my opinion he barely use punch elbow for most of his shots. he is not that passive arms as you think.

Hardy, hitter. Now this is passive arms.

Now both of them wants you to use maximum pivot delivery. I say its the same thing but one is a swing and the other a hit with very little component switch. A hit or a swing, is very much a person choice , but you have a more natural Swing motion.. changing to hit will take much longer. So, just take neutral grip, pitch elbow, do a little work on sequential release ( karate chop), keep the rest of your motion and you should learn to do it relatively quickly . I would say this is the quick fix areas.

Both of this person will never teach you, Flat left wrist, LAG, Compression, Power, ( from 98 mph to 112 mph average for me)which you can only learn properly in TGM.. i suggest viewing the videos by Jeff Hull, Lynn Blake , Ben Doyle, Ted Fort to have an idea. these are work in progress. Now this takes tons of time to see results,, especially if you don't have a TGM coach beside you.

^_^ once you know how to do it.. you will be hooked.

I promise you that is what TGM is all about!! We use references to be specific to detail.... but the heart and soul of Homer Kelley's work is :-

3 Imperatives

1.FLAT LEFT WRIST / BENT RIGHT WRIST

2.CLUBHEAD LAG

3.STRAIGHT PLANE LINE

If you have these 3 things and a zillion plane swing ( Hardy's sequel!!!:laughing9 ) then you will have a much better season than if you have a one -plane swing but no understanding of these 3 things...


GB, thanks for this post. Well, you can believe or not but even not being a TGMer I knew that those 3 imperatives are keys for good golf.
Flat left wrist/bent right wrist is something we mortals call as a push release.
That's why I never put special attention to the most common crossover release type.
Clubhead lag - well, it depends what kind of lag we are talking about - dorsi flexion right wrist lag (right wrist bent) or radial deviation right wrist lag (right wrist cock). Push release (bent right wrist) favours the first one, unless someone is so gifted to transfer the wrist cocking lag in the first part of the DS into the wrist bent lag in the middle of the DS. If a golfer cannot transfer it soon enough he is left with a crossover release type. This is how I understand lag in my plain language.
Srtraight plane line - yes, this is the ideal we all should go for.

Cheers

Nuke, where I can find an explanation what is a Punch Elbow and what is a Pitch Elbow ? What is a sequential karate chop release ? It will help me to understand what you are talking about

BTW, as you see I am here in this room...that's why I already before classified myself as a Swinger. I agree to you 100% - I'd prefer to use my natural tendency instead of changing for Hitter's motion, since it's very hard for me to activate my right hand. I am really very willing to try TGM method but I need a starting point. It seems for me that it's hard to do it without at least full basic knowledge that I suffer with.

Cheers

I think you have a wrong 'notion' on a few things.

A Flat Level left Wrist with a Bent Level Right Wrist at impact is NOT a push release or any release at all. It is an alignment at impact. It is what Homer Kelley constructed as the Flying Wedges. There is no push or cross over release in the TGM. A straightening right arm can drive the Bent Level Right Wrist or the Left Arm can swing the same right wrist condition. The right wrist does not push- that is a throw-away.
What you call a cross over release is a Swivel of the Left hand after impact which still had the First Imperative.
Clubhead Lag- one of THREE types of Lag discribed by Homer Kelley- is the hands leading the clubhead. The clubhead is resisting the Drag and Thrust of the Hands. This is not the Left wrist cock angle. It is the pull or push of the shaft dragging the clubhead. You were referring to Accumulator Lag, the angle of the cocked Left Wrist that needs to be released and roll into impact.

I know this is a bunch of words but they are very simply alignments.

good luck

Pitch elbow simply means the elbow is more in front of right hip opposed to side of body during downswing..

That will facilitate few things. it will allow the club rest on the PP3 ready to be pulled. and the elbow in a leading position, it allows the club to be dragged (pull) instead of pushed(hit). AKA Quinton top of the swing position.

Karate chop simply means , the palms is parallel and along the Plane ( do a seach on plane and what plane means, like the hogan piece of glass over his neck, could be higher or lower, could shift up and down another plane ). the pivot will carry your hand along this plane ( more or less what you are doing.)like a karate chop, Then at before& after impact the wrist roll ( thus closes the clubface) Then the palm will be parallel to the plane again, back up plane. This motion should not be alien to you because thats how you "Swing." , properly done, you will gain some speed.

This is a natural Horizontal Hinge of a Swinger. with a natural Draw action. Thus it is advised to use a Neutral grip. left hand is 20-30* facing right of target instead of the strong 45*

Simply play the ball more towards the target for draw, and away from target for fade.

Of course there are plenty of details... hard to describe unless somebody demonstrate in person.. I am just giving you what is in a nutshell , very overall picture. Treat what i say as a quick fix.

True TGM is learn from the basic chip , pitches , compression, like what EDZ,Matthew, Golfbulldog says, thus.. to know what we are saying.. Get the book asap for easy referencing.

For flat left wrist, it is always a Left arm swing( which is what you are doing, minus the flat left wrist i guess, but nobody i know have a flat left wrist and lag without proper education).. Right arm always push regardless of its a swing or HIT.. now... you don't have the book thus I can't reference it for you..

One word of advise, if you don't understand, Incubate, do a search, one day the egg will hatch.

[quote=Dariusz J.;39707

GB, thanks for this post. Well, you can believe or not but even not being a TGMer I knew that those 3 imperatives are keys for good golf.
Flat left wrist/bent right wrist is something we mortals call as a push release.
That's why I never put special attention to the most common crossover release type.
Clubhead lag - well, it depends what kind of lag we are talking about - dorsi flexion right wrist lag (right wrist bent) or radial deviation right wrist lag (right wrist cock). Push release (bent right wrist) favours the first one, unless someone is so gifted to transfer the wrist cocking lag in the first part of the DS into the wrist bent lag in the middle of the DS. If a golfer cannot transfer it soon enough he is left with a crossover release type. This is how I understand lag in my plain language.
Srtraight plane line - yes, this is the ideal we all should go for.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

lag is the secret... you see whichever version of your lag definition you chose you are using a visual manifestation of lag... its what the golf commentator on tv sees NOT WHAT THE GOLFER FEELS

TGM TEACHES THAT LAG IS A SENSORY EXPERIENCE... you can have lag with no left wrist cock........

TGM TEACHES THAT... rest of world doesn't!! you feel it in the base of your index finger... watch the end of the ben hogan home video... he tells you where it is!!

and nebt right wrist need not have any push motion at all... in fact only a hitter would think in those terms... Ted thinks about freezing his right wrist bent and using triceps to push.... hitting

i try to keep my right wrist bent and have no pushing feel at all - swinging....

again your conventional stuff only expresses what is seen and not what is intended / felt.... give it a go...

Here is the quote ( 1-F)...

"The "mystery" of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood (7-3). Whether its participation is active or passive is difficult to detect visually because in either case the Left Arm is ALWAYS SWINGING and the Right Fore¬arm is ALWAYS DRIVING. It is always a Left Arm Stroke unless the Right Elbow replaces the Left Shoulder as the center of the Clubhead Arc. (10-3-K)

This, alone, does not properly separate "Hitters" and "Swingers" because it is possible to "Swing" the Club with either Arm but only the Right Arm can actually "Hit." (See 10-19.) However, you will save yourself much anguish by using the Right Hand just for sensing and controlling acceleration and the Left Hand just for sensing and controlling align¬ments. Right Hand - Clubhead. Left Hand - Clubface. "

I think that for swinging( 3 barrels) the right forearm is driven ( ie. no active right triceps action to straighten right elbow" and right hand is sensing lag pressure....rather than the right hand pushing in a swing.... what i think Homer means is that the left arm can not push...maybe wrong on this but that is what i interpret.