Extensor Action and it's affect on Backswing
 

To the knowleadgeable membership of Lynn Blake Golf,

When applying extensor action in the backswing......what will the appearance of the right elbow be in relation to the left arm and what variables can affect the right elbows appearance??

To clarify appearance......will the right elbow be above or below the left arm from face on view at halfway back, right forearm parrallel to the ground, Top, and/or End.

To clarify variable.......I believe one variable would be pivot.

Thanks in advance for your answers as I try to learn more through teaching and my study on Lynn Blake Golf.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

IMO once you get to the right forearm parallel to the ground the right elbow will be below the left arm from a front view.You can't get to this position without some shoulder turn,it is your aquired motion backstroke.Any further backstroke motion and the right forearm flying wedge means the elbow will always be below plane.The flat left wrist is on plane .

Brian Gay's right elbow never goes below his left arm while he's hitting wedges (First 2 minutes of vid.) during the warm up tape at the PODS.

However Lynn's Right Elbow shows up below his left arm in his acquired motion pics specifically frame 11 is the first spot you see the right elbow peak out below the left arm.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

My limited understanding so far is that elbow position has less to do with extensor action and more to do with wrist action and 7-3... i.e how you choose to stress the shaft... hit or swing...

Elbow position depends alot on when you rotate your left face to plane ( or is rotated to plane)...early rotation to the plane keeps elbow by the side and lower and works with standard wrist action.... whilst single wrist action tends to delay the rotation of left hand to the plane and hence elbow gets higher ...

So elbow position at the top of the swing dictates the location of forearm position which in turn dictates the mode of shaft stressing / loading lag pressure...?

So within the confines of a straight plane line, i think the choice of wrist action dictates the rest.... and wrist action is easily influenced by adjusted address ....

Starting at impact address, like Brian does, makes early rotation of the left hand to plane weird feeling (IMO).... startin at mid body hands makes standard wrist action ( early rotation left hand) easier ...like Sergio....Maybe!:eyes:

But neither are absolutes....IMO Brian's Backswing has some components which are more "hitter" whilst his downswing is definitely "swinger".... it matters little because he is remarkably close to having 3 imperatives and 3 essentials on nearly every shot!!

Is there some old BG footage... before the makeover!! He has a really solid pattern developing now!!! Intersting to compare with the old Brian!

[quote=golfbulldog;41013]

Starting at impact address, like Brian does, makes early rotation of the left hand to plane weird feeling (IMO).... startin at mid body hands makes standard wrist action ( early rotation left hand) easier ...like Sergio....Maybe!:eyes:

[quote]

golfbulldog,

Interesting post.....however the video I have of Sergio Garcia at our teaching facility does not show his right elbow below his left arm ever in the backswing.

In fact the only PGA Tour Player I have seen on video whose right elbow shows up below his left arm in the backswing is David Toms and he starts with mid body hands (adjusted address).

I will check my sequences of Sergio when I get home to see if I have anything where his right elbow shows up below his left arm in the backswing.

The truth may lie i the pictures but the why is somewhere in the machine.

Sorting Through the Circuit Player's Handbook.

B-Ray

If you're applying Extensor Action (correctly) then the right elbow doesn't move away or up (from the body) until the right arm is fully bent (as far as EA allows it to be bent). Visually, the right elbow is always visible below the left arm, including Adjusted Address.

98.10% (I made that number up) of golfers don't use (apply) EA, including the Pro's (at least applying EA from the beginning of Start-up). Integrally related is that you can't perform the Right Forearm Takeaway with-out EA. Anyone can be taught to fake the look.

Sergio doesn't apply much Extensor Action (but some) but certainly doesn't use the RFT.

The only knowledge I've gained about EA from studying those who don't apply it, is that there are many ways to hit a golf ball. IMHO.

All of this should be under the heading of "The Magic of the Right Forearm".

Hurry up and sign up for the Las Vegas clinic.

Furthermore, I can't believe I have more posts than Neil.

The extensor action and the right elbow location are two completely seperate issues. Extensor action is the right arm always trying to straighten against the leash or checkrein of the left arm. That means the further the right hand goes towards the right shoulder it will bend. If you draw a straight line from the shoulder to the base of your right hand, the bent right arm could theoretically without regard to anatomical constraints could rotate around this line and effect the elbow location without affecting the extensor action for any given point.

If you simply keep the left arm straight, then bend the right elbow, the right hand moves closer to the right shoulder. So what? That's not theoretical.

If you move the right elbow out away from the body during EA RFT Start-up and Backswing, then you're just struggling and more theory won't bring you any closer to applying the Magic of the Right Forearm and its perfect motion geometry. EA Backswing and EA Downswing, are related because the left arm is a checkrein in both directions. Checkrein is just step one. EA is an action permitting not causing. The Straight left arm is a checkrein against the straightening of the right arm on the downswing, and against the bending of the right arm during the Backswing. EA will allow you to easily acquire the flying wedges and the longitudinal alignment of the left arm and clubshaft as long as you don't muck it up by forcing the right elbow out of position that EA created for it. That's not theoretical. IMHO.

Daryl apart from your tone.... when did I say my post was theoretical... - it is just basic fact !

My post was intended to show how elbow location and extensor action are two seperate concepts entirely.... This is undesputable!

Wow, wait a minute here - your talking to me about geometry !

Also power package alignments stem from their relation to the inclined plane.... not to "the body".... That is alignment golf, not some numbnut approximation.

Perhaps you need to go back and study Extensor action 6-B-1-D where on the very first line says it "is exclusively the steady effort of straightening the right arm".

The right arm stretches but does not move the left arm. The left arm does not change length and acts like a leash, and as the hands get closer to the right shoulder, the elbow bends. The left arm needs this stretch to stay at its full extension. You can bend the right elbow and not have extensor action, to think otherwise would be idiotic.....:rolleyes:

Extensor action has nothing to do with the flying wedges, there is no 'longitudinal alignment' of the left arm and extensor action has nothing to with the loading and the right elbow position. Thats TGM sludge. FACT!

[quote=bray;41028][quote=golfbulldog;41013]

Starting at impact address, like Brian does, makes early rotation of the left hand to plane weird feeling (IMO).... startin at mid body hands makes standard wrist action ( early rotation left hand) easier ...like Sergio....Maybe!:eyes:

Hi B-Ray

I had this edited clip of sergio from the Bushnell commercial! His right elbow "appears" to be lower than the left elbow in the last 1/3rd of the backswing... but this is highly dependent upon camera angles....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J6jWaRABVM

I still think that extensor angle and elbow position are not linked much...

golfbulldog,

Thanks for posting the vid. of Sergio however from the face on view or caddie view (looking eye to eye with the player) Sergio's right arm is above his left, and from down the line it is very hard to distinquish, so the vid. doesn't really prove the point.

But I am starting to see that EA and the position of the right elbow is not the issue here......So I will rephrase the question

What Makes the Right Elbow not appear below the Straight Left Arm??
What Components???

Also, Matthew thanks for the posts your helping me learn and thats what we are here for.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

Ok - Video not convincing ( but from DTL and left arm just past parallel i think right elbow is lower...)

but i have reviewed lynn's still images in gallery

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ry.php?cat=508

and compared the video of Ted hitting wedge in gallery. Ted's right elbow looks alot higher than left until startdown.







The differences in compoments appears to be:-

Loading action
left Wrist action
power package assembly point / left wrist cock ( early for Lynn / late for ted)
probably plane angle
location of camera angle


and for me the left wrist action is the key deciding factor in right elbow position... and loading action ( drive versus drag 7-3)...

Hopefully this will help...
http://www.golfdigest.com/search/ind...703annika.html

Very nice image, I like that alot. I see the line going down the inside of my right arm right to PP1. When I visualize that straight line from shoulder to right hand I see it parallel to the level right wrist. Using this straight line for a guide to extensor action, accumulator #1, and the bent level right wrist sounds pretty good to me.

Interesting Comdpa, Annika has right elbow above left (in backswing) at a time when Lynn would just about have right elbow below left elbow? No?

Different clubs... but Lynns left hand is more turned to plane and earlier left wrist cock... i just can't believe that the elbow position halfway in backswing is not related to left wrist action and at top /end related to loading action...

Anybody comments... Thanks

Could have to do with the plane angle too . . . seems like a steeper plane angle would show "less" elbow.

Per 7-3, Swingers because of the Start-Up Swivel, 4-D-0 will have the Right Forearm perpendicular to the Secondary Lever Assembly - Standard Wrist Action per 10-18-A.

Hitters due to the absence of the Start-Up Swivel, Single Wrist Action per 10-18-C will have the Right Forearm perpendicular to the Primary Lever Assembly.

Thanks Justin!... 7-3 is a gem!

Agree Bucket - what do you reckon about Annika... not in that way...! I think you see a lot of tour players who are mainly swingers but use a backswing that is more single wrist action thans standard....

Is that because they often swing with an angled hinge??? I certainly find it easier to "program" a hinge action thought during my backswing motion wrist action... i think i remember somebody else saying this too...?? just can't remember!

I think the elbow location is the key to extensor action being applied in the correct direction -below plane.I' m still thinking about the rotation of the right elbow around the line of the right wrist /shoulder .If that were correct you would really screw up your grip ,wouldn't you?:confused1

Not been around Big Man!
Hope you are well ,welcome back :salut:
........might see you in Vegas:rolleyes: :eyes:

The Theory of Relativity
 

Important to keep in mind that how you see the elbows and their relationship to each other, depends on both when, and where, you are observing them.

If you could keep the geometric relationships from getting distorted by perspectives, the elbows would IMO ideally be 'level' to each other, and on plane at a 90 degree angle to 'the plane'.

The lower (flatter) the plane angle, the more toward pitch elbow you need to be to obtain that alignment.

The higher (upright) the plane angle, the more toward punch elbow.

A truly vertical plane would require push elbow, if it were anatomically possible, and the physics of the clubs design were changed to accommodate.

Dim Bulb
 

"Extensor action has nothing to do with the flying wedges, there is no 'longitudinal alignment' of the left arm and extensor action has nothing to with the loading and the right elbow position. Thats TGM sludge. FACT!"

While perusing my attention was drawn to this statement. The idea that extensor action has nothing to do with the flying wedges. The way I see it (happy to change that to "saw it") is that creating the 90 degree relationship between the LFW and the RFW at fix determines the amount of right elbow bend. Do you not need a bent right elbow in order to attempt to straighten it against the checkrein of the left arm? Also doesn't extensor action ensure, or help ensure the correct degree of elbow bend at top?
So by the constant effort of straightening a bent right elbow, my left arm is extended, that resultant left arm extension then is what determines the degree of right arm bend. I thought I knew what extensor action was!!! :eyes:


The flying wedges and my selected plane determine the amount if hip bend (assuming a normal knee flex)
The on plane right forearm determines the amount of elbow bend at fix
The checkrein of the left arm determines the suitable amount of right elbow bend from startup to follow through with maximum radius

I wonder if EA has a 'signature' right elbow position...

Assuming the left arm is fairly straight, I would imagine the right elbow position would go hand in hand with how steep or flat your plane is, but thats about it. :dontknow: