Not sure about Hitting...Long Irons/Woods don't work well....
 

Something to think about at least----

If a proscribed way of swinging (hitting), works for some irons (short) but not as well for others(long), is that way of swinging (hitting) really effective?

From a reveiw of the posts contained herein, it looks like most are having consistant problems hitting longer irons or woods. That being the case, is this a good model, or simply a "specialty shot" similar to a lob or flop, or punch, etc, that you might employ on a selective basis, rather than being a "standard way" of playing?

Also, there are "few" hitters on the tour(s), and even then, I am not convinced that those who are identified as hitters, "hit" on all full shots as a standard way of play.....

Ted Fort is a pure Hitter and crushes the ball. Don't use the Tour is a guide. These guys are naturals and can do everything wrong and still win. Tour guys were never trained to do Homer Kelly's Hit stroke IMHO. But many do drive the clubhead with an Angle Hinge action.

I would read every post by Ted Fort about Hitting. A video I posted called Hitter's Row shows Lynn Swinging in the foreground and Ted Hitting in the background. A beauty to loop and watch over and over.

Well, I referenced tour(s) which includes many more players to model, not just The Tour. I just seems to me that there are not enough professionals, past or present, who do this to say its an optimal way to try to play the game. Especially when you see comments on this site such as "toe in the face to negate the fade tendency of hitting"....whats that about?

After Ted as an example, who else you got?

You are right- forget about the Hit stroke pattern if you feel uncomfortable with it.

But... ball position and/or a slightly closed clubface will adjust ball flight- you can fade or draw the ball at will. Angled Hinging does not produce a weak fade to the right unless you want that to be the ball flight.

A Hitter has more knowledge about clubface control than a Swinger- not a shabby thing to own.

As I said- Homer's Hit stroke pattern is not known outside the world of TGM/LBG. Heck, even some AI's don't know much about it. Homer loved it so much, he thought it would change the game because everyone would be so accurrate with their shots.

Check out YouTube and look at Kenny Perry- Lift and Crunch. Great stuff if you need a tour(s) guy to look at. I think he needs a bit of Extensor Action by still a great stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozdPKRBFTc8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQCUAsnK02M

and check out the hip action, too

So.... Lynn Blake and Ted Fort can teach you a great stroke that any tour(s) player would be the envy of. A bonafide Homer Kelley Hit Stroke Pattern and all the smarts that goes with it.

"You may also need to close the face a tiny bit at address.''..this is your advice to someone who is slicing the crap out out thier 3 wood and driver. What kind of motion is it that would require such compensations just to hit a decent shot?

Lehman, Verplank and Appleby look Hitty to me.

No, this is not my advice for some one slicing the crap out of ther ball with a three wood or driver. My advice to someone you slicing the crap out of the ball is to stop the outside to inside golf stroke. My advice would be to square the clubhead at impact with Educated Flying Wedges.

That advice, or at least mine, was about ball position or closing the face slightly was for a HITTER that wanted precision in their ball flight. Change either and control the ball flight. Control the ball flight and you control the game. Plain and Simply.

If you are slicing the crap out of the ball as a Hitter- gain some precision in your alignments. Start with IMPACT FIX.

Don't mean to be so harsh but you seem to think a little adjustment at address is a sign of weakness when it is pure precision. Hitters- TGM/LBG Hitters- have enormous control of the clubhead and how it impacts the ball. A Swinger doesn’t have the same control- he has to give that up with trust to get control.

I am not a real Hitter. I do like to hurl that clubhead, especially since learning to roll on the plane line (another reason my pivot is not in charge btw). But two weeks ago I played in heavy winds and went with a Hit Stroke and scored one of my better rounds. Today on all Par threes, regardless of distance (154-206), I used a Hit Stroke. I’ll be doing this from now on. Deadly accurate.

So is the next step "All Hit all the Time" - who knows? You don’t need a tour(s) player to feel good about the stroke. It speaks for itself. And Ted and Lynn are two top two architects to learn from. Be a lucky guy and talk to them instead of blasting adjustments and precision.

They don't identify themselves as hitters, but Gary Edwin guys use the right arm and right side to push the club through impact. Rod Pampling, Peter Lonard, Gavin Coles, to name a few.

The problem with IDing hitter's on tour is that very few tour players setup with the right forearm on plane, and at top, hitters and swingers look the same.

I started hitting in 2004 or so and played my best golf doing so. It did take a little time to get used to the longer clubs (2-3 range sessions) because the length of swing was shorter and the timing was different. After that hump, I hit it better than I swing it.

Hitting is a great procedure. It works with all clubs.

Also, in several books about Hogan, especially Jody Vasquez's book....
Observers of Hogan note that he setup with his club face about 5-10 degrees open at address. Hogan found that worked for him. I wouldn't worry about how much someone toes it in at address or not, I'd worry about how square it is at impact.

Hitting as it has been demonstrated in the TGM world is a very needy pattern.

Hitting the longer clubs
 

I find that most that are having trouble with the longer clubs are getting lost in Over-Acceleration. The Rhythm is so bad that the right arm cannot straighten.

Also, Steering could be a culprit. I've often seen Steering mistaken for an Angled Hinge Action.

Hitter's Drive Action
 

Ted,

Swingers have the Pivot (Body Momentum Transfer) to help them sustain the Drive of the Left Arm and Club through Release and Impact. What are your thoughts about the Hitter and his need to continue that Drive (from Release) via the Right Arm?

tough to wait
 

In order to have any Right Arm available in Release, the bent Right Arm (potential energy) has to be delivered to a Release point. When the Right Arm straightens, it becomes kinetic energy. When the Right Arm is actively being employed as a power source, it doesn't mean that you have to use a Full Sweep Release. I find this to be a hurdle for Hitters, with some thinking that Hitting means Zero Pivot, Right Arm only, and Right Arm thrust beginning in Start-Down. It's no wonder that some believe that they can't get power from Hitting.

One of the things that I try to imagine is the club moving faster after Impact. It makes me start slower and accelerate later.

Also, I find tremendous force in using all 4 Accumulators. It's great when you need to Hit one into a different zip code.

Right elbow at Top
 

Ted,

Can you comment on the position of the right elbow at the Top? I think people hear don't have a "flying elbow" and they try to keep it pointed down. I find if I can keep my right right arm 90 deg to the plane it helps my driving motion.

Trig

position instead of load
 

I think that many get position oriented instead of plane and load oriented. As an aside, it's something that I find comical about the "one plane", lawnmower type Start-Up. I hope I'm not stepping on too many toes, but I'm shocked that so many have fallen under that spell. You're feeling very, very sleepy. When I clap my hands, you will wake up, and you will be a one planer. But, I'm sure just as many have carried the proverbial tray at the Top, to no avail.

When the Flying Wedges are understood, the smoke and mirrors of position golf are destroyed. The look of the elbow and Right Forearm can be dramatically different based on the steepness of the Plane. Jack was obviously different than Hogan. Who was correct? Both were correct. It's the beauty of TGM: variety.

The True One-Plane Swing
 

All this should probably be in another thread -- Bagger, help! -- and I should probably be asleep, but for now...

Here is my belated, much tongue-bitten take on the now well-known 'One Plane' Swing.

Per the illustrations in Jim Hardy's explanatory book(s), videos and commercials -- the 'One Plane Swing' puts the left arm in line with the shoulders -- right and left -- at the top. In other words, the arm swing and shoulders share the same 'one plane'. This is a very flat swing plane -- at best, an Elbow Plane -- that forfeits the Right Shoulder support (of the Hands) during the Start Down and Downstroke.

Fortunately, there is another 'One Plane' swing, the Turned Shoulder Plane of The Golfing Machine. Here the Hands arrive at the Top In Plane with the Right Shoulder and the Ball. The Left Shoulder obviously lies above that Plane. Even if, from Address, there is a Plane Shift during the Backstroke -- normally from an Elbow Plane to the Turned Right Shoulder Plane -- the Straight Line Hands-Right Shoulder-Ball relationship from the Top continues to rule.

In other words, the geometrically-ideal 'One Plane' swing is NOT on the flattish plane of the backstroke shoulder turn. Instead, it is on the plane of the Hands -- through the Right Shoulder -- to the Ball.

Thanks Yoda and YodasLuke,

As always, great precision in the answers!

Bagger, PLEASE, help!


Let´s not forget that how we see things, through our glasses with the knowledge that we get throgh the book and this website, doesn´t always "match up" with how others see through their glasses.

Therefore, Mr Hardys definition of his one plane is valid, in his world

Furthermore, that this pivot controlled hands type of motion is not as precise as hand controlled pivot, is yet another thread.........:laughing1

BAGGER!!!!

Have a student, 16 years old, wants to be nr 1 in the world 2o17 by the way... Today a rotated shoulder turn with the hands/clubshaft in a x-classification plane under the right shoulder. Regarding the planeangle, what would you do?

Thanks,