Pivot role in swinging
 

Just a few thoughts about where my mind is during the swing...

Is it fair to say that the pivot has an "active" role at the transition phase to "spin the fly wheel" and establish lag pressure ... but that once the fly wheel is spinning, the power pockage is now in orbit, the left arm swinging and sequential release of accumulators 4, 2 then 3 begins ( triple barrel)... and the pivot is then "passive".

By "passive" i mean its motion is just enough to SUSTAIN lag pressure sensation in hands but not overly active to increase those pressures.

By "active" i mean one can consciously place your mind in part of your pivot to encourage a correct motion but then as soon as lag sensation is established in PP3 then my mind jumps to my hands and the pivot is then purely responsive and sustaining that sensation.

These are the thoughts that i have had recently -with lagging clubhead take-away i find my mind is in my pivot until "end" / transition phase when i get a massive awakening of pp3 sensation and the downswing occurs with mind in my hands... aware of the delivery line prep, delivery line uncocking prep, delivery line roll prep etc... ( love that video of Lynn doing this !!)

I know these are feels and hence may be personal to me but just wondered if anybody else found that their backswing is essentially pivot controlled hands until lag pressure comes with a wallop and then hands control the pivot once the power package is spun in orbit by flywheel...?

Comments??

If accu 4 is to be active, shoulder pivot need to be active. ie shoulder throw.

For swinging , shoulder throw/Accumulator 4 , Instant hip acceleration are responsible for Drag loading and applying Pressure on PP 3 , pp 4 , pp 2. Not the elbow , not the wrist.

However, shoulder job is to blast the arms. if that answers your question. It doesn't become passive and its still need to carry on turning

Hi Nuke - i think i see what you are saying - but what i am saying is do you guys have your mind in your hands from the address position or only once you have loaded the lag??

for me, I only feel PP3 and maybe PP2 is monitored from top( lag loading) till follow through, both arm straight and the pressure eases when hand is shoulder height, finish of the swing or when the swing 'brakes'

But I would start monitoring my hands from the very beginning of the swing.. because the wrist gotta cock, bend, up the whatever plane you choose. so

"Mind" in the hand all the time, and its matters execution wise.

"Sustain the lag"
 

The "Lag/pressure/resistance/torque/tension/stress" can only be sustained by active action/muscle contraction/pulling or pushing/acceleration, during which, for as long as possible:

the pivot keeps rotating or sliding or doing both against the "Lag/pressure/resistance/torque/tension/stress",

the arms keep pulling (in "swinging") or pushing (in "hitting") or doing both (in "switting") against the "Lag/pressure/resistance/torque/tension/stress".

Then, let the "LAW" determine the rest.

The club only takes the ride and the ball the punch.

If your intent is hand controlled pivot (even if, ultimately, say only through impact), I'd lean to saying that such thoughts of "separation" of clubhead feel and an active pivot are hazardous. See 7-19 where clubhead feel is established for drag loading (before what you describe as "active pivot phase"). Even in float loading (see where clubhead lag is loaded), I'd think you are risking throw away with your described sequence, or a least a decrease in accuracy in that the hands are out of the picture for a time period.

Given knowledge of what is supposed to happen (body rotation, for example), the hands can dictate from start to finish (given that the hands DO follow the correct line).

Do your really want to be rotating your pivot for as long as possible?

Lagging in my posts
 

Hey, Clubhead Lag has NO Release Point :wink: .

I'd like to read more/confirm:

Isn't the case where body rotation starts the gyroscope, then it's all cetrifugal force. Any active addition of pivot would disrupt the action of cetrifugal force. Body responds to centrifugal force. Cetrifugal force creates clubhead change (sustains clubhead lag). All the swinger has to do is get things started.

This is pretty much what i was trying to say - the pivot drives the powerpackage into orbit around a stationary post/something/head/base of neck and release 4, then 2 then 3... the pivot doesn't stop moving but it slows during the accumulator releases and moves just enough to enable sutained lag pressure... but in a swinger the pivot is not driving the lag pressure.... at least that is the way i have interpreted it.

Thanks for your comments guys. Helpful discussion for me!

What I learn and it work best for me.

The right shoulder keep turning and never stop turning for swinging or hitting as matter of fact. especially important in order to keep the left wrist flat, and not to run out of right arm. and also maintaining the PP3 lag pressure. the main cause of throwaway, chicken wing, in swingers. As drew stated.. Lag have no release point for PP3 especially.


The pivot turn/ shoulder is the one throwing against the lag pressure point from the top in 7-19, and the wrist get thrown by or moves together with/by the shoulder , ..Or another way of explanation is,the shoulder throw against lag pressure points . The pivot does not decelerates at any point except it brakes near the end of the swing. For swinging, the speed of pivot is the same throughout, hitting, the speed of pivot is gradually increasing due to the different Physics of loading.


Hand controlled pivot , have nothing to do with how much the hand moves or the pivot moves, they have to move in rhythm. And the hand move in precedence to where the pivot have to move. You monitor one thing but all zones need to be correct. They all need to move correctly.. everything is inter-Dependant. and nothing is independent ( the concept of rhythm)

It simply means how the hand is monitored. Awareness of the pressure, the position of the hand and finally the feel is what reproduces the mechanics.

Bold and italics by me

Nuke, do you think that the pivot maintains constant speed throughout swinging motion?

I do not think that physics supports this??

Or is it something that you feel?

I have to say golfbulldog i am really on the other end of the spectrum than you on this. Really don't get this comment 'but in a swinger the pivot is not driving the lag pressure' :eyes:

To let you know where i'm coming from: in my case (i'm a swinger also) my pivot certainly does a hell of a lot more than get things started. I feel like it works hard all the way through the ball, anything else and i'm taking the first plane to throw away city. :(

I swing to end and release pp #4 fairly deep into the downswing. The hands have to travel along way to get their with pp #4 intact, for me thats a lot of pivot work. Even when pp #4 is released theirs still lots of work going on. When i have problems with throwaway i'll often work on my pivot and maintaining the load in my feet from the start of the downswing right through impact. I mean when your dragging a wet mop, does it feel effortless to you?

Sure doesn't to me.

In Swinging ,the pivot is doing everything in terms of power.
It can start from the feet.
It can be just the left arm substituting for pivot- but only for very low power strokes.
In the full swing -pivot is all you got.....so crank that gyro.:golf:

Don't misunderstand me , Danny - when you drive ( active ) the power package with your pivot deep into downswing ... i think we both agree that this is alot of work done by pivot power.... but once acc 4 is released and the power package is flung into orbit ... is the movement of the pivot continuing to drive the power package OR is the continuing movement of the pivot merely sustaining the lag pressure?

I am not saying that the pivot quits movement after acc 4 release... merely that the main stage rocket has done its job and the pivot is just keeping up and not accelerating the power package anymore....

Maybe this is just a feel... but it seems to work and produce good results. Remember that the pivot does slow down during the downswing through impact... it may feel like it is doing work but then the mop is extended from your body and not tucked in close as it is at the top of the downswing.

I am not advocating quitting but once accumulator 4 is no longer across your chest.... can the pivot drive the power package as effectively???

Bulldog,

Wouldn't the finish swivel be the key to completing the pivot after both arms straight?

Sam Snead's hips slow down considerably from relase swivel onwards and the power package zips agross his chest and the "arms are flung from the sockets" ( paraphrase of his words often repeated by Ben Doyle apparently).

Sounds to me like they have been driven into orbit by the pivot active component... but the pivot contiues to move - not to drive but to sustain pp3 pressure.

NB. Lets be clear - i am not saying this is the gospel - this is the "seems as if" that i am currently playing with, it does not mean throwawa...just release... i started the thread to discuss the topic - not top try to convince people. But in the manner of an debate - i have to set out the topic for discussion . Thanks for your comment and enjoy Sam!

golfbulldog i understand where your coming from and agree with what you say is going on. However my FEEL is obviously very different to yours. If i think about the pivot slowing down i'll quit and have throw away.

When i practice hitting balls left handed i concentrate on throwing the left arm off the chest. I know as you say for this to happen there must be some slow down of the pivot, but to me it still feels like theres so much work going on there. The pivot certainly doesn't give up the ghost after accumulator #4 is released. For me trying to slow down the pivot is a terrible swing thought, far better to think about throwing a heavy left arm at the ball and let your body respond naturally.

Not something I feel.

for swinging, and hitting, the pivot have slightly different role. each own ways will sustain lag pressure the most.

Instant Hip Acceleration for swinging... to go against the weight of the club....7-19..

Lag loading an Axe .. Vs Lag loading a string..

so.. if you decelerate.. what happens to that string.. simplest way i could explain.. answer. lose lag. throwaway...
If you are stressing an Axe... same speed what will happen? vs increasing accelerating speed.?

yes its a little to do with physics.

The PP3 lag should not "release" until the swing is almost finished.

Hitting have right forearm throw.. swinging is pure pivot + what u call wrist throw.

And sam snead is using Std hip action vs Hogan Delayed hip action..

Both can work very well .. and TGM people here prefer delayed hip.. Just make sure u understand what u are doing...

"2-M-3. MUSCLES
Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives #4 Accumulator through Impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during Delivery. "

"2-M-4. BODY POWER
...To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger's essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact, or as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter's loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed. (Study 6-B-4, 6-C-0 and 7-12 in this connection.)"

"6-B-4-0. THE FOURTH POWER ACCUMULATOR
...As Accumulator #4, it is Pivot (Body) Power supplying the initial acceleration of the Downstroke to throw the Lever Assemblies toward Impact by the Thrust of the Shoulder Turn. (See 7-13.) "

Here are a few quotes which i found last night which support the discussion of what i was trying to express. I might be misreading Homer's original intent - if so please put me right! --Thanks!

2-M-4 suggests that the pivot blasts the left arm into ORBIT towards impact.

6-B-4-0 seems to support the fact that pivot power for swinger is providing the INITIAL movement of the power package in order to THROW the arms towards impact.

ORBIT and THROW suggest that the powering nature of the pivot is over once the power package has been blasted off. The power package is on plane and moving freely.

2-M-3 suggests that, unless the accumulator 4 is actively driving left arm through impact ( ? would this be on short strokes only which are too short to allow blast off?), then the pivot motion does not usually drive the power package through impact but moves to sustain lag pressure point 3 and PERMIT and ACCOMMODATE the correct movement of the power package within the constraints of the imperatives and essentials.

ie. once the power package is accelerated on plane then the pivot REACTS to allow the motion of the power package to trace straight line, sustain lag etc ... so the body is still moving alot ( NO QUITTING HERE) ... just that it is not actively powering the arms through impact.

In fact my current feel is that the requirement to sustain pp3 lag pressure after release and trace a straight plane line is what forces the MOTION of the pivot... especially the right shoulder going down plane beyond impact...

The distinction i see here is that Ben Doyle in the gallery videos often describes the ACTIVE MOVEMENT of the lower body around impact with the "catch the tail of the doggy" story ( where he actively "snaps" his pivot towards impact). But i wonder if this motion is actually a REACTIVE MOVEMENT in a true hands controlled pivot??

This might have already crossed the line between useful discussion and esoteric twaddle... sorry if that is the case for you!!!:eyes: :sleepy: :laughing9

Time to hit more balls and less keyboards!!:)

Swing Thoughts don’t determine HCP or PCH. Think whatever you want. Or don’t.
“It is fair to say…..” Describes Pivot Controlled Hands. If the Pivot contributes only motion, then the #3-accumulator roll is a hand manipulation. The passive pivot dictated that your hands must roll by themselves. Hip Action indicates Hands Controlled Pivot. The hands required that the pivot add the force needed to roll the #3 accumulator.
HCP are the Hands saying to the Pivot “I’m only going to hold onto the club, like a clamp; I’ll guide it for you, but you (pivot)do all the work”.

Well Said
 

Well said Bulldog! In the glossary under Axe Handle/Rope Handle is a nice differentiation between Hitting and Swinging. Regardless of what accumulators are used or not used- comparatively speaking Hitting is continuous thrust and Swinging is inital Thrust. Of course, both have continuous, constant lag pressure in the hands until after the ball is gone.

P.S. regarding the PM discussion we were having about a certain house located in North Carolina - having a greasy smell floating around it- with 5-8 rusty cars in the front lawn- YES, make the calls - line the troops up - it's time to make the hit!:salut:

Good post there degenerate wearer of granny panties. You better polish up the helmet Private Parts.

How is the Thrust different? Colonel Klingon?

Could you achieve a "Klingon "if you thrust too hard?

Nice
 

Nice Neil! Answer- Depends. You know - those adult diapers that Bucket wears!

With a Shoulder Throw Trigger does the right shoulder thrust in the direction of the left bicep in order to set the #4 pp or does it thrust toward Aiming Point?

For swinging,

there are constant debates, whether u do it with the right shoulder or left shoulder as a shoulder throw.

NOW, the reason we want to use a right shoulder is because, we want the right shoulder to Lag the left shoulder and the left shoulder to lag the arms.

Ie. the right shoulder will Stretch the whole Upper shoulder blades, and this stretched muscle will drag the arms. If this is thrown correctly, the PP4 will be felt. In another words, The pivot job is the throw One or both arms.. Using left shoulder throw ... is a bit tougher to stretch that torso.

For hitting, The right shoulder a backstop for a tricep thrust.. So the upper torso is not stretched. But the tricep muscle actively contract .

SO the shoulder throw have slightly different character to it due to slightly different role.

To answer your question, and its still an opinion , not expert opinion, Mike and Bagger might have a better explanation, I think it highly depends on which plane angle you use. The way i see it is to check it at Impact Fix, to see how the right forearm is inline with the shaft ( if u use elbow plane) or forearm below the shaft if its turned shoulder plane, That is the amount of Axis tilt you need in your shoulder. So, the shoulder need to tilt accordingly before ( thrusting) or turning ON PLANE.

The shoulder do not use aiming point as their job is to provide "thrust" by rotation.

only PP #3 uses aiming point and only use for it is Hitting, or snap release or a straight line. Which I personally do not think anybody should try it unless they already master the concept of sweep release. Personally, I can't perform aiming point for swinging but to trust the geometry of the circle and I am not losing any distance nor accuracy yet.. Doesn't mean I cannot do it yet that you can't, nor I won't keep trying :)

if that answers any of your question