Goosen Rt side swinger or hitter w/ silky tempo?
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAPz_UqyXdg

What would guys say this guy's pattern is? I have looked at clip after clip. He and Apples look like hitters w/ enviable tempo. He goes kinda wide w/ on the the take away, but narrows it up big time on DS. Looks like great rt. side extensor action late in the DS.

whats his club face doing on the backswing? Angled?

Retief Goosen
 

From the beginning, Retief Goosen has been a Right Arm Swinger.

His post-Impact Left Wrist alignment (Bent) has been intolerable to some and derided by others. Yet, he has won two United States Open Championships.

:shock:

Right Arm Swing.

Left Arm Swing.

Right Arm Hit.

It only really matters when you do it for a living.

I don't think so.

:)

thanks Yoda,

Does he use a horizontal or angled hinging procedure? In this video he appears a little shut.

I thought he might be more of hitter because of the bent left arm at impact, versus straight left arm when swinging.

Another question for you, does the bent left wrist post impact pose a problem w/ consistency? I thought as long as it was flat at impact, that you would be ok.....maybe not, Im just starting the learning process:read:

Hard for me to tell from this video, as I can't get the video to stop after impact to get any clues. I think there is a tendency to angle hinge if you don't employ a startup swivel (leave the face looking at the ball on the takeaway), which would give it that shut look on the way back.

post impact positions have a nasty habit of becomingpre - impact positions. The FLAT LEFT WRIST is the #1 Imperative for a good reason. There are players whose athletic ability will be able to compensate for a BENT LEFT WRIST. The question is can they do every time and to the same degree every time? Odds are they cannot.

Ben,

Do you know if hitters always use an angled hinge at start up and follow through? Azinger, at least when he was coached by Redman, used angled hinge on BS, DS, and FT but I always thought he was a left side pull swinger.

Sligo,

I see your point. Not training for a FLW post impact could easily lead to flipping at impact if you dont watch it...

A couple things:

Hinge action doesn't occur at startup. It's what the club does just after impact. If I had the book in front of me, I'd get you the reference (I'll add it later). The takeaway does tend to setup your motion for the desired hinge action, however.

Per 10-19-0, "Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging", so I wouldn't say a hitter always uses angled hinging, but it is the natural tendency when hitting, just like horizontal hinging is the natural tendency when swinging.

gotcha, thanks man...

Yes, Retief is a right arm swinger (a tour proven way to swing a golf club).....confirmed by Ian Baker-Finch while analyzing Retief's swing in slow-motion on a ABC golf telecast...So is Ernie Els while were at it. Just read his classic swing golf book....he sounds like Tomasello. The Magic of the Right Forearm....the Magic Move.

After watching Retief's golf swing in slow motion on youtube....I believe if he knew the three imperatives (especially clubhead lag pressure point and how it relates to the straight plane line, that concept is huge) he would go to the next level of consistency.



DG

A couple of thoughts.....

I see Retief as a swinger. Check this link on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrXIT...eature=related

(you can hit pause/play - pause/play to slow it down more)

To me - it appears he is pulling the club from the end, versus using his shoulder as a backstop and driving his right forearm. At :31 seconds is a great shot of longitudinal acceleration - shaft bent down, etc.

Check out this with Trevino:

Start around 19 seconds but watch (and pause/play) at 22 seconds (not sure who posted the vid, but they reference angled hinging):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Eqhou3ZAn0

To me, it looks like he uses his right shoulder as a backstop - then drives his shoulder/right forearm downplane and actually looks like his right forearm chases the ball.....in fact, he talks about turning in the barrel - and a closed clubface, etc. Great video - priceless.

Just my perspective.

Hinging, in itself, occurs during the impact interval - per 7-10.

I personally do not see Retief as right arm swinging - to me he looks like a manipulated swinger. Appears shoulder turn takeaway, blah blah blah.

As far as impact - I have still at my house. Yes, his post impact is funky - crazy really. But, having seen him 4 times in person, and video - he hits down. I mean bigtime down. Doesnt look like it in the video, but standing in front of him is a different perspective.

One last thought: His post impact flip seems to be caused by his left elbow bending outwards, towards the target - I would think there is a correlation there........

My point of view (yes, I know, I need glasses). :eyes:

Patrick

Swinging
 

Tomasello also use to refer to as swinging too. But he uncocked the right elbow from the top through the right forearm per the Magic of the Right Forearm. Powerful swinger that Tomasello.

I have video of Tomasello swinging a club when Tommy was in top form (1987).....his swing was as smooth and powerful as Els and Tommy was approximately 63 years old.

DG

To truly be a right arm swinger doesn't the right elbow move past the right hip before contact? Which presents another question - do we pull with the right side or the left side when swinging?

http://www.golftipscc.com/profiles/p..._03/index.html

This may shed some light....

This swing is a LOT different than the youtube deal with him on the swingvision . . . the alignments look MUCH improved.

I would like to see a few clips of TT's swing. Can we get those posted?

The above is open for debate....I have Tomasello on video teaching a student...and Tommy asks the student what are you going to start the club down with....the student's response.....the muscles of both forearms. When I studied with Tommy I believe it was all right forearm. I have 8 hours of my instruction with him on audio cassette....1/3 of the total time instruction time with Tommy. I believe the whipcracking reference that Tomasello mentioned might be the muscles of both forearms move to start the club down. I'm still listening to my tapes. On the Australia videos we have Tomasello teaching the two forearm startdown, but primarily with the right forearm. But Tommy always taught the uncocking of the right forearm from the top. I have references of that from 1987 through 1993.

DG

Debate Over
 

The forearm answer is... you can use all three combinations for swinging (Watched Tommy's 1987 teaching video, he said you could use all three combinations, what a revelation). Left forearm only, Right Forearm only, or both. Reference Tommy's Chapter series #5 video on power...when Tommy talks about regulating power for the shot at hand. It's up to you the golfer to decide.

DG

LBG West Coast Suport
 

HG did a number of these a while back. Post'em, HG, and add any commentary you feel necessary. Thanks!

:salut:

Delaware, you should get those tapes on cd's and computer to make sure they last forever, we might even get treated to a few of these convos!

just an idea, im pretty sure someone here could help you with this.

TT's Tilt at Setup
 

TT at setup: significant amount of axis tilt
I think Hogan didn't have this much (according to V.J. Trolio his COG was centered between his feet)
Was TT's visible setup tilt a result of his Height and body type? How tall was TT by the way?
thoughts?

Setup Tilt
 

According to my instruction with Tommy and the video instruction of Tommy on this site, Tommy's tilt at setup is due to the right hand being lower than the left on the club handle. Lynn and Ted might disagree with this setup. Lynn/Ted??? any comments?

DG

axis tilt
 

I would say that the Right-hand being lower on the club and any bend in the Right Arm would cause the Right Shoulder to be lower, but it doesn't have to cause axis tilt. I was taught for years to have the excess axis tilt at Address, but with an uncentered Head. With that amount of axis tilt, I couldn't play dead in a western movie because I couldn't manage Low Point.

In my present Hitting pattern, I have axis tilt at Address because of my Impact Address. My Head is centered, but my Hips are forward. Thus, the axis tilt is derived from the lower part of the axis being forward and the Head being centered, instead of the top of the axis being tilted back and the Hips being centered.

T-Rex Arms!
 

"Thus, the axis tilt is derived from the lower part of the axis being forward and the Head being centered, instead of the top of the axis being tilted back and the Hips being centered."

That is a great distinction, Mr. Fort! Thank you for putting it that way. Setting up to a driver my chin used to be over the inside of my right foot. I had a pro physically move it there (apparently I was not getting my weight to my right side!) Curtis Strange had just won his second U.S. Open! Of course, the problem then became that my right arm was a foot too short!:eyes: I seldom run out of right arm these days:salut:

To me TT's tilt at setup does not seem to be due only to the natural tilt that might occur from the grip (right hand naturally lower than left).
He adds alot.
In TT Ch. 1 "Pivot" video you can see this starting at 3:40 but more cleary at around 7:04 he says after getting what he calls the "three point set" completed to "tilt just a bit": and you can see this clearly as a choice he is making to hula just a bit toward the target (as Mr. Fort has said he does) so it's clearly moving toward or is at an impact address for him before he starts his backswing.

It may just be me, but this doesn't tell ME much.
It may be the bad camera angle,but the notes I would question-Goosen is noticeably steeper on his down stroke?
I never saw it when he was based in England.

Tried earlier to post a TT sequence...unable to upload...will try again soon:)

Tried again...no luck...jpgs won't upload...sorry:)

Sorry for the delay, everyone...

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ry.php?cat=535

In the Boiler Room
 

Thanks, Ben.

:salut:

nice job Ben...thanks for the helping hand:)

I still believe my comments above are the truth on Tommy's tilt. Tommy's tilt at setup is in direct proportion to the right hand being lower than the left on the club handle. See the 1st video from the chapter series on the pivot for back up data. Let Tommy tell you himself. Yeeee Haaawww. Glad we have the videos.

DG

Good call. That was an erroneous analysis based on a bad camera angle. The correct camera angle would show him right on plane on the downswing.

Thanks Tanks[sorry -couldn't resist!]
-obviously I agree mate!:salut:

just threw it out there in the course of discussion.....you can direct your criticism to Brady Riggs