Delayed Release Stategy
 

As usual, what I uncover most during research is discovering my own confusion.

I finished reading a Physics article on the subject because I wanted to find out what advantage(s) are gained by Sergio, Hogan and many more like them who form an acute angle between their Left Arms and Clubshafts at the Top of their Backswings. They seem to do so at the expense of a Level Right Wrist. This topic has emerged so much these past few days and I have this unsatisfying feeling that something has been missed. Dismissing one or other alignments as “not the best way” doesn’t explain why they do so. So rather than criticize them, I spent just a short time trying to uncover the mechanical advantage to this seemingly mechanical disadvantage.

I just recently discovered the word "Torque". I’ve heard the term before but I honestly have never had the need to understand the Physics of Torque. Torque is Maximum when the Force is at 90 degrees to the lever. And believe it or not, this led to Centrifugal Force which led to slings and Catapult engines and their design strategy. Bla, Bla, Bla.

But anyway, here goes first assumptions.

By decreasing the Angle between the Left Arm and Clubshaft at the Top of the Swing, they delay the Throwout Action (onset) of Centrifugal Force and gain more time to reach their maximum hand speed. So, the acute angle helps them achieve a Delayed Release and Max Hand Speed which may lead to higher Clubhead Speeds.

Anyway, it’s a thought. Can anyone (except Bucket) shed some light on the subject?

optical illusion
 

I do not know if this post should be here and do apologise in advance.

I am always puzzled that the angle between the left arm and clubshaft can be an acute angle and would think this is an optical illusion.

If one were to hold a book in front at eye level, and imagine you are looking at a golfer face on; the bottom horizontal edge is the left arm and the left edge is the clubshaft. Now tilt the book away from you about the bottom edge (left arm) such that the left edge (clubshaft) is on a swingplane of 45deg. The angle between the left arm and shaft is still 90deg, OK. Now rotate the book about the bottom right corner (left shoulder) horizontally say 30deg. The angle between left arm and clubshaft now appears acute to your eyes...optical illusion.

I believe it is simple.The LOAD on the vertical left wrist hinge pin ,-and consequently the right wrist bend,is substantial.This is particularly evident in swingers using snap loading.
In a previous post,elsewhere on this forum,there was a lot of debate about right wrist bend and cocked right wrist(referencing Sergio).
When checking out the amount the left wrist can cock and the right wrist can bend -DO NOT do it "statically".You simply can't get your left wrist to maximum cocked position unless you load it.
Try this;
Put your left forearm out in front of you,elbow against your side ,palm down,make a fist ,thumb out to the right as if you were holding a club parallel to the ground .Cock your wrist -now pull on your left thumb toward you -your wrist will cock at least a fraction more.
Place the palm of your right hand against a wall,fingers pointing to the right so the wrist is bent at the maximum you can naturally achieve by just bending,now lean your body to the right -the angle between the forearm and wrist reduces,way beyond what you can achieve statically.
In both cases you have have achieved the maximum angle you can achieve by LOADING. Call it load ,call it torque, call it reduced angle-call it what you want, (I am not one to go into detailed Physics like other forums -Homer used terms he felt were best-I'm not going in the centrifugal/centripetal hole).
As in a lot of the book ,you don't get the true picture until you MOVE-I suspect Homer suggests doing short strokes first for a reason MONITORING.
In the full swing this is difficult -so we translate mechanics into FEEL,and the feel of 100% LAG PRESSURE in SWINGING will cock that left wrist more(for most people) than you can just by moving your hand.

Daryl, you are back with a VENGEANCE!!!:salut:

I agree. The camera angle can create illusions and it is sometimes difficult to measure angles from them. Often, many pictures from varying angles are needed to get a better measurement.

Hi Neil,

It's just my Winter Golf Starvation period. OCD. I've been laughing outloud at some of the things Bucket and you guys are saying and my Wife looks at me like I'm a nut.

Anyway, I agree with what you're saying. The force of Loading can Cock the Wrist(s) to a greater extent than static Cocking. And I agree that Motion adds another dimension to each component.

Do you think, that a Late Release is caused by the mechanically more acute angle between Left Arm and Shaft (or something else?), or is Delayed Release simply a decision the Golfer makes and then merely prevents (somehow?) Throwout from occurring at its normal place.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is; Is there a relationship between Cocking Angle and Release Point in un-manipulated Swings?

I think-just let it happen.
Regardless of the amount of wristcock,wrist angle-whatever ,if you use automatic or non automatic release -it's all about intention .Decide you're going to manually(non automatic) release ,then roll -or just let it go.
So, to answer the question,-no ,it is what works for you .:salut:

Hmmmmmm . . . a grown man laughing randomly out loud at a computer screen . . .are you doing any random rocking as well? Sounds like Mrs. Daryl could be accurate in her diagnosis. The slope is slippery . . . and leads to great wailing and nashing of teeth.

If a mid-70's vintage van shows up at your home air brushed with Barney riding a unicorn with Elvis in the distant background holding hands with a scantily clad mermaid with abnormally large cannolli's riding a chariot of fire with bumper sticker that says "yeah that's right I picked it . . . and I'm going to eat it too."

I would strongly suggest not opening the door if the gentleman knocks . . . it's probably a CERTAIN member of our forum that has been attempting to "stay away" . . . but is having serious emotional problems and internal strife (ironically that begin with the symptoms you happen to be experiencing as well).

Stop the snowball from rolling while you still can. If you can't get help here . . .get help somewhere.

I tried just one time to explain to her what was so funny, and she said: "That's it! You've lost your grasp. We're going out this weekend." So now I won't be around Saturday. :crybaby: And she moved 2 of my clubs to one of the closets in the Foyer. She grabbed the Dowel and asked; What's this stick for? I replied: "Put-that-back"; "please." She did. She shook her head. Go figure.

Tempting . . . but my resolve is not to go THERE. Too easy . . .

Ya, I must be more careful. For a moment, I forgot.

If swinging...doesn't a level right wrist just "occur" if you release the club naturally and swing with essentials....?

The conscious effort to maintain it at level is surely only important if you are actively thrusting with your right elbow...then you have to maintain it to get on plane thrust...?

You are right that the left wrist cock allows the body to turn more quickly but i think that if you turn to quickly you can easily initiate throw out action too early. So whilst you can turn quickly it is hard to keep the club from throwing out....

I think that you should only turn as quickly as you can to allow the hands to take their desired path.

And I think that is slower hands than most people think if you want a max trigger delay style....

The slow hands allows max trigger delay which, via endless belt, gives good distance despite slow hands....

If your forearms can delay release whilst the hands take straight line path then you can turn quickly....

But i think that for most people you achieve trigger delay by slowing your turning motion...IMO...not saying this is gospel but just the way i have read the book and experienced it....so correct me if you think i am wrong...any thoughts?

The reason that anyone and everyone unintentionally Cocks their Right Wrist during the backswing, is because they Don’t get their Right Shoulder Back to the Plane. If you Cock Your Right Wrist you have a Lateral Sway to the right whether you want to believe it or not. Your Left Shoulder may be turning to the right but your right shoulder is not equally and simultaneously going back. Your Right Elbow is collapsing because it’s being crowded and you have no choice but to cock your right wrist because your right Elbow can’t raise as your left arm raises.

Most Pros have a level Right Wrist (including Tiger) more than halfway back, but then their Right Wrist Cocks at the Top of their Swing because their Right Shoulder just won't turn any farther or becaue they have the ridiculous idea that at the Top of every backswing, that their Clubshaft must be parallel to the ground and point at the target. Hmm? Where did they get that idea?

The solution is Extensor Action or put your Level Right Wrist is a cast at address. Then your Right Shoulder will be forced back to the Plane by your Educated Hands and Right Elbow. Also, If you start your Backswing by moving the Shoulders as in the Classic One-Piece-Takeaway, they have no clue where to go or how far back it is to the Plane. If you start with the Right Forearm Takeaway, and don’t sway, and keep your weight back toward your heels, you will keep a Level Right Wrist and your Hands will direct and move your Right Shoulder back to the Plane.

It gets even better than that. Your Educated Hands will move your Right Should Back as far as the Length of your Backswing dictates and requires. No more guessing how far to turn your shoulders. An Additional benefit is the Straight Line Delivery Path, and bla, bla, bla.

Anyway, it’s just a thought.:)

When does the level right forearm ( with level right wrist) rotate? Do you believe that it does / should rotate in the backswing?

Is cocking the right wrist more of a pronation of the forearm rather than a true vertical cocking motion?

I find that with any real degree of right wrist bend in place, the cocking motion of the right wrist is very limited and further cocking attempts tend to lead to pronation of the right forearm.

Mike Austin used re-rotation of the forearm as a downswing trigger and this always seems similar to what Tom Tomasello describes in the video on this website.

Any thoughts? Right forearm rotation is not mentioned in TGM... does anyone know what Homer thought about it?

Also , what do you think of 7-20..."Maximum trigger delay noticeably restricts maximum handspeed. ..."?

When does the level right forearm ( with level right wrist) rotate? Do you believe that it does / should rotate in the backswing?

Swivel Startup. Immediately

Is cocking the right wrist more of a pronation of the forearm rather than a true vertical cocking motion?

I'm scratching my head. Cocking the Right Wrists is like Cocking the Left Wrsit. Vertical Motion. What does Pronating mean?

I find that with any real degree of right wrist bend in place, the cocking motion of the right wrist is very limited and further cocking attempts tend to lead to pronation of the right forearm.

You mean; Rolling the Right Hand at the Top of the Swing. I agree. Most Everyone does that. I agree with that too. I don't agree it should be done.

Mike Austin used re-rotation of the forearm as a downswing trigger and this always seems similar to what Tom Tomasello describes in the video on this website.

I don't know of Mike Austin. If Mike likes to Roll his Right Forearm at the Top of the Swing, then Mike will teach you how to re-rotate it in the Downswing. It's not a Trigger. That's what you do to spin a Quarter on a tabletop. "To Trigger" is to straighten the Right Forearm". It's more difficult to understand, but it's faster to say. And it's a cool word.

Any thoughts? Right forearm rotation is not mentioned in TGM... does anyone know what Homer thought about it?

Rotation is mentioned and defined. Left and Right Hands. Turning and Rolling. I think that Homer is OK with it; just not at the Top of the Swing.

Also , what do you think of 7-20..."Maximum trigger delay noticeably restricts maximum handspeed. ..."?

Homer is saying that if you delay too long then your hands won't have the time or distance necessary to reach maximum hand speed. "Maximum trigger delay noticeably restrict maximum handspeed..." is Homers way of saying it. He was a genius, don't expect that he said it that way for us to easily understand.

Two years ago, I asked Yoda to help me understand the 4 power accumulators. He looked at me and said: Left Hand, Right Hand, Left Arm, Right Arm. I shook my head and hung it low. That was as easy as he could decrypt them for me. I got the point.

Thanks Daryl, i like your Yoda quote - very inciteful!

I read and understood something different about the 7-22 maximum handspeed bit though. i will think more and see what others say. my mind still open but late at night now and the night shift neurones are on tea-break!

If this helps you:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronation

I am sure there is stuff about Mike there also...always worth reading what others have to say - Homer must have had quite a library - he certainly stood on the shoulders of giants.:salut: Boomer, Morrison etc

Right Shoulder
 

Notice how long the right shoulder stays high into the downswing with many of the Max Trigger Delay players.

Lagster,

That flew over my head, please explain. I'm missing something.

I have seen this too... it seems to me that in order to keep the right shoulder high well into the downswing...you need to release accumulator 4 but then not release accumulator 2 or 3 until later....

ie. you have minimum overlap of accumulators...decrease overlap (6-M-1) to increase velocity.

Am I right in thinking that once you release accumulator 4 your pivot is no longer powering the power package? Power package is in orbit....pivot does not stop moving but it is falling behind the power package and its movement is to allow straight plane line tracing rather than powering the power package??

Thanks for any thoughts on this - good point Lagster!!:golf:

"Homer is saying that if you delay too long then your hands won't have the time or distance necessary to reach maximum hand speed. "Maximum trigger delay noticeably restrict maximum handspeed..." is Homers way of saying it. He was a genius, don't expect that he said it that way for us to easily understand."

D,

I'm trying to understand this one as well...... is handspeed in 7-20 the velocity of the hands from top up to release, or is it speed of the hands during release?

Is Homer saying that in order to utilize max trigger delay (i.e. verrrry deep into the downswing prior to release) your handspeed has to be slower in order to be able to release and square up the head/face?

CG

CG,

No.

Throw something across the room.

Your right Shoulder and Right Arm both move simultaneously. Your right shoulder moves 12 inches and your arm moves 36 inches for a total travel distance of 48 inches. Your handspeed was pretty fast and your arm was moving and your shoulder was moving at the same time.

Homer Kelley is saying that if you move your shoulder 36 inches and wait to move your move your arm, you only have 12 inches remaining distance, then your hand won’t be going as fast as in the first example.

If you delay moving your arm, then you don't have enough distance or time to reach reach your maximum handspeed in the 48 allowable inches.

The Distance from the Top of the Swing to The BAll is only just so far. The QUESTION is "When should You start your Release so that You can reach Your Maximum Hand Speed? .

A guy with really slow Hand Speed should start (Release) a little earlier so that he can reach his maximum handspeed and a guy with really fast hand speed can wait a little longer.

Just how fast are your Hands? If you can throw a Punch as fast as Ali, then your hands are pretty fast. If you throw a punch like Betty Boop, then get a Pink Ball.


If your Hands are Fast, Release Late. If your Hands are slow, then Release a Little Earlier. :golfcart:

Do you get it now?

But wait, There's more. If you have super fast hands and decide to release late because it's your God given right to use your Genetic endowment, the you better reduce your #3 Accumulator so that you can get the Clubhead around the Pulley in time before your hands finish the swing.

If you have very slow hands then you should release a little earlier and because you released earlier you may want to have More #3 Accumulator angle because you have more time available to get the clubhead to the ball and because of this you may use the Mass side of the equation and you might actually hit the Ball Farther than the Speedy Hand Demon.

Ya see: Tall, Short, Fast, Slow, Mechanics equalize the Playing Field. (Watch out for the Short Guy with High Hand speed with a Dark Tan)

Wait: There's still more. Most of the above mechanics apply to Hitters. Swingers, spin and use CF to straighten the Right arm. SO,,,if you're a fast spinner, then release late. If you're a slow spinner, release earlier.

Wait: one more thing. What do you do if you have fast hands and a lot of #3 Accumulator? Circle Path delivery. It will allow the #3 accumulator to get around the pulley. Homer had an answer for everything. He didn't give us the questions.

Oh My
 

D,

Sometimes I think I should be paying for this info so I'd sleep better. I'm a slow spinner and this probably explains why I hit it better when I feel like I release it "earlier". Armed with knowing the why of this... I could be scary now!

Thanks.

CG

If you don't hit it better, then just learn more and more until you do. Or, take a lesson from Yoda and jump to the head of the class.