Trackman
 

I recently read in the trackman newsletter that a positive angle of attack is better than 0 or negative. A very interesting article that seemed to say that we should be hitting up on the driver and not down. Has anyone else read this?

I did, thought it to be very interesting and contrary to what we, as TGM enthusiasts, believe.

Do you have a link to the article or their data?

Trackman
 

I have the pdf. Can I post it here or I'll email to you.

Don't always believe what you read
 

Be very careful with this one folks. The studies I have seen from Trackman may not be accurate because all it is saying is that with a 0 or 5 degree "upswing" the ball will go farther. However, they did not say what loft they were testing or if they were even using the same driver. It seemed to me that they were just creating launch angle.

The trackman is a very accurate machine and I like the fact that it can track the ball and the clubhead. I would like to see more testing with different driver lofts to see if swinging "up" is better or is more loft better.

I don't need the article, but I appreciate the offer Rick. Golfgnome answered my lingering questions.

Tips From the Top
 

As usual, premier player-teacher-fitter Jeff Hull cuts right through the 'seems as if' that most of us have never even thought about.

No bias.

Just the facts.

Thanks, Jeff.

:notworthy

More Loft = More Spin
 

I read the article, and, according to trackman, the main problem with more loft on the clubhead is that it is also the main factor in the spin rate. So to reduce spin you need to go to a lower lofted clubface, but then need to do something in your swing to keep the launch angle high.

I allways thought it was funny how most LPGA players have very low lofted Drivers, even with there relatively low swing speeds. Seems like they all set up to hit up on the ball also.

John

Trackman
 

This could prove interesting. Tom Wishon announced that they will be working with trackman in several areas. Hopefully there will be better info on the horizon regarding clubfitting.

Most professional Long Drivers have been saying this for years actually...hitting up on the ball creates the most distance. Maybe a better way of saying this is that the clubhead is attacking the ball at an upward angle rather than the fact that you are trying to HIT UPWARD on the ball. Two very different things in my opinion.

E.

Hit Up
 

Is that because of the forward bending of the shaft at impact??

My assumption is that you are hitting the ball in the part of the clubhead arc that is past lowpoint. Again, that is only my assumption and I don't have any type of scientific data to back me up, but I do know for a fact that more loft yields more spin which at a certain point begins to kill my distance (as measured using the same club/shaft combo with different lofts on the monitors at the PGA superstore).

E.

Once again be very careful! I know for a fact that the simulators in the PGA Superstores read spin at about 800 to 1000rpms higher than it actually is. The other thing that you have to be aware of is angle of approach. If your approach angle is somewhere between -3 and +3 then you will probably get the best numbers. To little spin is just as dangerous as to much.

The rule with fitting drivers is use the loft and flex that allows you to achieve the best balance then test on the course. Monitors are only good to a point then it becomes a players prefernece. Many people find that they can produce the same numbers with different drivers yet on the course one goes much farther.

Someone mentioned the LPGA players using very little loft. If they have played that way their whole life why change them. Just like Bubba Watson, I may not change them but I sure won't teach it either.

Approximately how much difference in driver spin is there between the typical balls at a range/superstore vs. the balls we would play with on the course - say a pro-v 1?

I've heard that the range ball could be around 500rpms higher. That plus a simulator that's off by 800-1000rpms would be a huge difference!

Trackman and LPGA
 

Another part of the article talked about the LPGA players having a more upward AOA than the other tours. Maybe that is why a lot of the ladies seem to dip down so much at impact, they have to in order to get to the ball in a forward ball position. The announcers on Wed at the match play said that JB Holmes used a very forward ball position also. Very Interesting!!!

Aoa
 

I wonder how much the ball position would have to change to go from -5* to +5* Angle of attack. (all else being equal)

JB was playing his ball forward of his left foot on Wednesday

Can't answer that one exactly, but the PGA tour superstore has pretty advanced equipment and you can use the ball you normally play with. They even have a new monitor that is actually 3 screens. One is the typical screen in the front, and they also have two screens on the side so you get sort of a panoramic view. It is absolutely awesome!! Locally, there is no need to go to any other golf store because they have every thing I could possibly need and they have enough space to allow you to demo anything you desire.

However, let's assume the monitor is off. Even if the system isn't calibrated to exact real world circumstances (even though I believe it is pretty close), the relative differences in spin is still clearly evident when I increase loft on the drivers. An 800-1000 rpm difference in spin would be clearly evident once I got the club out on the course and I have not seen that big of an error happen. BTW, that would also mean that everyone getting fitted at the PGA tour superstore is playing with drivers with too much spin. Wouldn't someone notice this? I was also fitted at a course in Alpharetta for the same specs on a driver using real world conditions and a launch monitor so unless everyone is in cahoots, I am inclined to go with what the monitor says and balance it with what my eyes see on the course. Of course misfitting will always happen, but that is the beauty of their 30 day playability guarantee. If it doesn't work, you simply take it back and get 100% of your money back.

E.

Pulling for Bubba
 

There was a long hitter who used to play the european tour that once told me that positioning the ball forward of low point is a good idea for extra distance as long as it is placed slightly inside the base of the plane line. I think it adds up to a controlled pull. You have to set up right to get it going "straight." Bubba has it way forward. Do you think these guys are utilizing that particular pull technique? They all look as though the are coming over the top of it...but NOT! The long hitter: Wayne Westner. I once saw him hit a ping one iron about 265 on the fly (that would be meters) He was longer than Daly.

There's a good discussion going on over on Golf Discussions regarding the Wishon's latest Feb 2008 eTech article: A New Visit to High Launch/Low Spin Driver Fitting.

I am taking a closer look what the numbers mean. Are they optimal for carry? Are they optimal for total distance?

Regards,
Todd
All4Golf

Gents, below is the link to one of the best threads on number crunching that you will probably ever get on LMs and is directly related to this threads spin rate questions.

http://www.golfdiscussions.com/yabbs...c,23466.0.html

It is a longish read but a mine of info for any golfer to get a grasp of what drives what in that little collision zone:)

Wow!!
 

Thanks for posting this article. This is definitely fantastic information and the folks at Wishon are highly regarded with respect to understanding all of the different parameters involved with designing as well as fitting golf clubs. The interesting point is one poster points out that A of A has greater impact than Clubhead speed does. Wow. I would have never figured that, but the data seems to support this information.

Can you imagine if each of us had regular access to this type of information so that we could continually customize our equipment and hone in on the optimum parameters at a moments notice? That would be fantastic!

E.

Would playing the ball forward give JB a little more time to reach top speed. I thought that I read that top speed would be achieved where both arms are straight, but the ball gets in the way depending on ball position and slows the clubhead down.

What do you think Homer would have been able to do with launch monitors and trackman stats?

The Optimal Flight developer is a pretty smart cookie who is slowly learning how TGM works. I have given Yoda the intro to Todd a while back as the info that comes out of these machines and the maths behind it are super high end stuff.

If you wish to tinker with info you get out of a machine at home, the OF software is not a bank breaker and I find it very useful to run what ifs on.

www.qualitygolfstats.com is the home page that has some interesting examples for the world to read in angle of decent figures etc.

Enjoy guys.

Thanks Paul. I just finished my final post (Part 3b) on Golf Discussions. TGM is something I am learning more about every year and look forward to better connecting the two (launch conditions) and TGM.

This article (reviewing optimal launch conditions) was not an easy one to write and tried to make the information relevant to well tested data and what to look for. Short summary of the article: The published optimal numbers send a mixed message and try to illustrate why.

OptimalFlight offers a 12 dimensional world to interact with in the ball flight realm. Whenever a 'table of optimal launch conditions' is published, we're holding 9 other variables constant.

Regards,
Todd

Todd's homework is to read the book with the forum here to fill the foggy bits in:)

I hope that between us all that LM info and thinking behind it becomes better based having Homers thoughts behind them all.

Makin' It Happen Down South
 

Thanks, Todd, for this first post. Whether North Pole or South, alignments rule.

With today's technology, listen to the degrees. But understand the fundamental alignments:

Flat.

Level.

Vertical.

On Plane.

Up Plane.

Down Plane.

Parallel.

Centered.

You are a young man with tremendous talent. These are the alignments that must be understood (and produced) by the competitor on the tee, fairway and green.

Embrace those who bring these alignments to you.

Run from those who would make it more complex.

Thanks for the welcome :occasion: and a quick start orientation Yoda!

I have some reading to do... :read:

Todd

golfgnome,

Ready for a 3x3 experiment to do this?
3 different lofts ex: ( 6, 9, 12*), (or vary impact spot on face?)
3 different attacks (+,-, level) (or vary tee height?)

Same driver make & set up. Same ball. Same consistent swinger for all combinations.

Regards,
Todd

Would love to do it. But lets use some realistic lofts like 9, 11.5, 13.5, 16.

Ok! Sounds like a good start. We can catch up later in the week when you're back and settled in from your trip.

Todd

Love the smell of progress in the morning.

Trackman
 

The newest News Letter is very interesting:

http://trackman.dk/getmedia/2f6c5cdc...Jul2009_1.aspx

Interesting. The "new" laws.... hmmm.... 1969 is new?

Looks like Chapter 2 is getting closer to the masses.