Discussion of the Most Misunderstood Yellow Topics
 

Ok . . . What do you guys think are the most difficult and misunderstood principles of The Golfing Machine? Let's discuss them . . .

I know some ruff ones are "No Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach Procedure" . . . How #3 works . . . Overlap . . . Endless Belt . . .

Let's see what we can learn . . .

Good idea!

Seems like this should have its own section with Bucket as moderator and separate threads for each of the difficult concepts.

Endless Belt for me. I don't think I'll EVER get that.

I could care less today however. I just bought myself a brand new RXV! I think I'll just stare at it for a few days before I ride it. Me in love........

flying wedges, the belt has two different schools of though, depends on which one your coming from

Belt with two schools of thought? Holla on that . . .

Well.. good topic.

Mine would be the FLAT left wrist and the Inline conditions. Geometrically FLAT left wrist .. Very heavily misunderstood topic.

And Hitting/swinging. Guess what, i still don't really understand it .

The flat left wrist from a geometric stand point is an alignment with the LEFT ARM. The left wrist is basically the "fulcrum". So from a geometric stand point you want the shaft to be IN LINE with your left arm. So stick a bicycle spoke or cut off coat hanger or something in the butt . . . . of your club :). Put your hand on the club with different grip strengths. Notice how the more turned your left hand is the more you have to BEND AND COCK to keep the shaft in line with your left arm. So basically it is the shaft and the left arm being in line that defines the geometrically flat left wrist.

So with a 10-2-B grip you could have a "visually" flat left wrist AND a GEOMETRICALLY flat left wrist. As you turn your hand on the club your wrist must cock and bend to keep the shaft in line with the arm. So you are geometrically flat but NOT VISUALLY FLAT.

So the BASIS OF THE FLAT LEFT WRIST IS IN THE LAW OF THE FLAIL . . . so folks got different flails than others . . .

2-K . . . Compare the Primary Lever Assembly (6-A-2) with the common flail. While the “swingle” is seeking its “in-line” (full extension ) relation with the “handle” (catching up) there is “Centrifugal Acceleration.” When it becomes “in-line” (caught up) this settles into “Centrifugal (Angular) Momentum” (Full Extension). If it passes its “in-line” relation, it again seeks its “in-line” relation (backs up) and “Centrifugal Deceleration” sets in with a huge power loss. These three phases demonstrate what is termed herein “The Law of the Flail” – the Swingers primary concern.

If thrust is applied only to the Left Arm (Handle), the Clubshaft (Swingle) will perform more like a Rope Handle (rising Clubhead pull), but if prestressed by Clubhead Lag Pressure Point pressure, more like an Axe Handle (steady Clubhead Inertia). However, the Primary Lever Assembly is only somewhat flail like. That is, it is bolted together as with a hinge pin, rather than tied together with a thong, so that it can only be “Cocked” and/or “Rotated” per 4-B and 4-C and cannot pass the “Handle” (4-A-2) while moving toward full extension per 2-P. This insures the Imperative Flat Left Wrist (1-L, 2-0). Study 2-F, 6-F-0 and 10-19. As with the standard flail, the true and proper direction for its mass to move is “downward On Plane” regardless of the incidental appearance of moving “forward On Plane.” Always from the Top. This is indispensable for both Hitters and Swingers for inhibiting Clubhead Throwaway

So look at Couples Turned Left Hand right . . . his Flail is more THONGY . . .. watch him get his thong on . . . but he still satisfies the Law of the Flail even though his wrist bends to keep the shaft in line. True thongy swinging . . .

Geometrically Flat but NOT VISUALLY FLAT


See the wrist is bending and cocking but the shaft still maintains the relationship to the left arm


VISAULLY FLAT AND GEOMETRICALLY FLAT . . .


Ok . . . Hitting and Swinging . . . Homer said is just . . . . PUSHING vs. PULLING. That's it. Notice the quote from 2-K that is in red above . . .

Right Wrist Alignments
 

12P


Not to get off topic ...but do I also see a difference in the right wrist at the top...does Freddy have some right wrist cocking and less bend...whereas Tiger has lots of right wrist bending & no cocking. Are the two related to the left wrist position on the grip.

Not sure that it's cocking . .. maybe it is but his right forearm is definitely ROLLED at the top which shoots the club across the line.

extensor action
 

For me, extensor action is difficult to take from words on a page to implementation. If I try to foucs on it by applying pressure througout the motion it adds too much tension to my hands, wrists, and motion.

I try to keep width and structure in my swing but I have to do it without tension. In other words, if my right hand were to come off the the club at the top, my right arm wouldn't immediately straighten out because I'm not apply that kind of pressure.

Similarly, I find it difficult to treat my left arm as a rope. If I try to apply that literally, it feels like I'm swinging with one arm.

I have to moderate how I apply these for best results.

May not be right on target here . . . but I'd say Extensor Action is definitely a more ridgid and "active" feeling with Hitting than with Swinging. I'm probably not the guy on this one . . . I Swing and don't really think about it all that much.

Somebody else???

As far as Swinging and the left arm being a rope . .. not a bad idea to actually take some left arm only swings so you can get the feel of loading #4. How your shoulders load #4 has a big impact on where your hands go . . . I have a problem with blasting my arm out to the right too much rather than having #4 release more DOWN my chest. Hard to recover from a bad Start Down.

You and Bucket need to Man-Up. :rambo: Read how many times Homer puts Extensor Action into the 12 sections of 12-3-0. Also in 6-B-1-D, the right tricep is never passive. That assumes of course that you have a right tricep to begin with.:super:

depends on where you think the pulley is....or should i say number 3...?:happy3:

Axis Tilt
 

2-H "On Plane" Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting
its axis, the spine.

This led me to think that the upper spine, near the right shoulder
had to tilt back to accomodate the right shoulder to get the
shoulder on plane. The hip turn and shoulder turn makes the
axis tilt look like it is leaned back to accomodiate the right
shoulder on plane. The set up axis tilt also seemed to confirm
the same thing.

Then Yoda dropped a boom shell when he said that the bottom of
the spine moves slightly away from the target with the weight
shift (a Hip Motion). Later Lynn said "In contrast, some instructors --
perhaps even most -- teach that the top of the spine tilts away
from the Target in the Backstroke. They lable the move as an
"athletic" Pivot. I lable it a Sway".

What a great post. It cleared up so much. I certainly hope that
the forum picked up on it. The post brings up a whole new world
for current thinking. I hit 2000 balls working on the correct concept.
I feel much more leverage and a since that the right elbow is going
through impact with a lot later release and a complete hip turn
to a complete the finish.

Bucket, you had a post "Who ain't got no Axis tilt? I ain't got no
Axis tilt". Did you ever get it worked out?

Hey Trig.

If I may take a humble stab at Extensor action:

I had a similar experience with extensor action but now cant think of swinging without it. When I first employed it I felt sort of stiff and bound up.

What I now believe happened to me is this: I had, for years been very left side dominant in my swing. I used to create width with a rigid left arm, I used my left arm to push the club away etc. My left side was stiff and my right soft. This stiffness in my left side I had gotten very used to. It was my usual way. When I added extensor action both sides felt awkwardly stiff, locked up.

I was averse to relaxing my left side because it was necessary for all of my old left sided motions or actions. But TGM I would say is very right sided.

In fact I would say that learning to relax my left arm and employ extensor action was for me, an open door into the real world of TGM. All of sudden things I knew only theoretically were possible in my swing. The non cocking, level right wrist and the cocking of the left wrist via right elbow bending for instance. None of which the old me could accomplish.


Similarly my new swing couldnt be accomplished without a rope for a left arm or extensor action. Now my swing is very right sided. It feels sort of like a right arm flying wedge that stretches a relaxed left arm. The right side is under the left. The right hip goes back. The right arm takes the club away. The right elbow bends, cocking the left wrist. I bump and drive the right shoulder down plane. Etc etc. A lot of right sided stuff. I feel a clear distinction between the role of the left wrist to define the hinge action and relaxed left arm.

Anyways. I'd keep working on it. Hopefully it will be as rewarding for you as it was for me.

Talk to me man . . . I caused a melt down at another site talking about #3 . . .

Still working on it . .. David Orr has a fantastic video on what the spine does at his site. Really really good.

Anyhow . . . Axis Tilt or the amount of tilt . . . when it tilts . . . is HUGE. First of all the top of the axis is basically the center of the shoulder turn which the left shoulder is attached to which controls low point. So you certainly want to pivot in a way that has the center of the shoulder turn . . .well . . . Centered. But then it becomes how much you slide your hips and turn your hips and where they go . . . of course the left shoulder basically locates low point and the right shoulder is part of the power package. So the shoulder turn being centered is huge for solid contact reasons . . . curvature reasons . . . angle of attack reasons . .. hand path reasons . . . plane shift reasons. . .

The axis of the spinning shoulders is big big part of the machine producing precision alignments.

Define "the corner" of the belt, is where; the the appearence of the club is overtaking the arms, or, is it where number 3 starts to roll into impact...the big angle has a a function for one, and the little angle under the heel pad for another...a point of confusion among some

Ob
 

OB - good comments. I probably haven't given it enough of a chance. It's a tough one for me.

Witcha . .. so the belt is just a concept anyhow right? And the hands only move in a straight line for a very short time from the straight on view.

The belt lies on the plane . . . release motions are a combination of #2 and #3 so depending on how much #3 you have . . . it's gonna determine your belt to some degree. . . barring no plane shift.

Lifeless Left Arm
 

Similarly, I find it difficult to treat my left arm as a rope. If I try to apply that literally, it feels like I'm swinging with one arm.


You took the words out of my mouth! My sticking point is not so much the technical aspects e.g. endless belt, hinge action etc. Those items are based in fact so I know that they will succumb to my persistence at some point. The real challenge for me is (as Trig already said) is treating my perfectly good left arm as an inert length of rope, so I guess extensor action is a bit of a puzzle. It is difficult not to tend towards providing structure to the left arm without using muscular tension in that arm. But pushing or throwing the left arm off the chest is a great swing thought. If you cannot execute do you really understand it?

I can only speak from my own experience but the old ways seemed to have had there own essentials, often non compliant with TGM. My left side needed to be stiff to do all that I was doing with it. Breaking those old ways was like breaking a horse. The old ways were ingrained, learned and deep in my golf psyche.

I have come to think of the adoption of TGM as having two parts: 1. The learning of TGM. 2. The breaking of non complying old habits. Often the old and new seem diametrically opposed and incompatible. The turning off of old motions often a prerequisite to the full benefits of the new motion.

The period of training when both old and new are in play is a time of conflict. Extensor action for instance, feels awful when one is attempting right wrist cocking, left arm push away, left arm pull down etc etc.

I say, let this feeling of discomfort be your guide to the area of the conflict, resolve it and behold the promised land.

My guess is that Yoda's swing feels as good as it looks. No discomfort, no non compatible or conflicting elements. A free wheeling and smooth application of geometrically aligned linear force.

Now, I'm sure that like an old car on a cold morning it takes a little warming up from time to time. A little discomfort a few sputters at first but then after a while choke in and away he goes. More of a smooth running Jaguar 12 cylinder than Mr Magoo's often misaligned jalopy.

Most misunderstood, certainly by those new to TGM

'The' plane is not the shaft, but the hands

Second to that, probably what horizontal hinge motion really is (that it is the left wrist relative to the left shoulder hinge pin). Easy to show on a horizontal plane, confusing to many on the angled plane.

Third, loading as it relates to the flying wedges.

EdZ

As a newcomer to TGM, I would love to see you, and other senior members, open up individual threads on those listed topics, and also topics like the endless belt. I would appreciate any insightful input to those individual threads that increases my understanding of all those topics.

Jeff.

Bucket, great thread.

Here is a quicky for someone to knock off:

I dont get the hooked face irons thing and the implications there of.

Word . . . consider the old weight on a string deal . . . weight is spinning round and round . . . then it flys off. Physics has it flying off at 90 degrees to the radius. So imagine if you tilted the axis of the whirling string so it was spinning around on an inclined plane. It still would leave at 90 degrees to the radius which would be OUT TO THE RIGHT.

The concept is the same in golf. The clubhead is the weight on the string. The force that you are generating would be at right angles to the radius. So anything back of lowpoint the force is OUT TO THE RIGHT. So design hook face into the club to DIVERT the force so you can hit the ball down the target line and not out to right field. Notice the longer the iron the less hook face . . the are designed to be played closer to low point.

Hope that makes sense . . . any correction would be good from any of the HEAVIES lurking.

MAYBE this could be more of an action type deal. I don't think you necessarily have to have your left arm "rag doll" limp . . .but maybe Mr. K was saying that there isn't really any POWER/Action . . . the Left Arm is MAJOR in clubface alignments and low point alignments. So don't go braindead on Left Arm.

OK Maybe this wont be a quickie after all. Sorry.

I am with you on the shorter irons being played further back of low point. I can see how being further back of low point they therefore have more out and down after impact. I get how the weight that flies off the string prior to low point flies to the right of low point, but dont get the relevance to a golf shot.

I've been looking at my irons for years now and dont see a hooked face. Where is it? Is it something to do with progressive shaft lean?


Thanks
O.B.

Hooked on Classics
 

This is an oversimplication but give it a try: Replace your Clubhead with a tennis racket head (on the end of your Clubshaft). At Impact, the tennis racket head would drive the ball both Down and Out into the ground and to the right as Bucket explained. Note: the Sweetspot of the tennis racket is in line with the Clubshaft and the racket has no Loft. The Force is always Down and Out at Right Angles to the Radius. The Club manufactures would then have to add loft to the racket face, which would make it hit the ball further right (rotate the racket face clockwise in your hand to add loft). The manufacture now creates a Lie Angle by taking the Sweetspot of the racket Head out of line with the handle by giving it hookface. Now take you old Club, without the tennis racket on it, and hold the shaft parallel to the ground. Look at the face. Which direction would the ball go if the Plane of Motion were parallel to the ground? It is not going to the right.

Your job, if you decide to accept it, is to drive the Clubhead both Down and Out from Impact to Low Point, not toward the Target. The design of the Clubhead and Face is to divert that Down and Out Force to an on Target Force (Reference 2-D-0, first paragraph on page 24). You do your job and let the Club do its job. Don't do the Clubs job! Let it do what it is designed to do.

The amount of hook face varies from club to club. Mathew did an explanation on the intersection of Planes that goes into more detail than me.
Do a search and you should be able to find it.

Extension Action is easy to apply on the Downstroke but its application on the UP stroke is what increases individual tension in the swing. Less is More to quote Buckminster Fuller. On the Up Stroke EA should guarantee only that the left arm does not shorten its radius as the right arm folds on the way to the top. The folding right elbow is the stabilizing action on the left arm to prevent a limp noodle.
On the DS, extension action is still the outward inline condition of the left arm remaining a constant radius. A limp noodle or string can easily shorten and a little is a lot in a precision golf stroke. This “inline outward” force is not what moves the flying wedges to the ball. The pivot train pushing Power accumulator number FOUR and/or the straightening of the right arm (Number One PA) does that but not with the same force that is EA. Extension Action is the geometric precision of the Power Package- not the power of the stroke.

Trig- swing the one arm but hit the snot out of it with the other using the same power train. A baseball hitter guides the bat with the lead front arm and knocks the cover off the ball with the bent trailing arm- and the arms never move on their own. Its all hips and hands. But the ball comes to the batter in that game.

Endless belt is merely the mechanic advantage of the wheel. The shorter movement of the inner wheel (HANDS) increases the surface speed of the OUTER circle (Clubhead) so it can still in rhythm and maintain its Pace with the inner circle of one revolution. It is a whipping action of the clubhead (outer circle) around the hands (inner circle). This of course increases clubhead speed.
In nature any increase in surface area will produce an increase in surface speed to maintain its original Pace. This action with air over a wing produces LIFT called Bernoulli's law by producing a difference of pressure on the shorter side of the wing - in this case the outter side of the foil that cause an increase in air speed is the clubhead and the short flat side of the wing is the hands which maintains its Pace.

Drewitgolf

Didnt want to use my Mizunos so I just cut the head off my wifes 5 iron and her tennis racquet too. Im sticking them together like a giant tennis racquet.

OK I get what your saying. Nice. OK. Out and down.

Hey this sort of relates to the dilemma I face when I have a say a pitching wedge from a severe side hill slope with ball way above feet. I grip down and adjust the sole to a more horizontal plane than the slope, so its still "loft" not "left" and then take more club given the chocking down and aim to the right to accommodate any remaining "left" , swing out and

Oh, oh her she comes,crap, oh she's pissed!. Gotta go.

OK Im back and apparently I now have an infinite amount of time to devote to golf. Ive added loft, Im just about to add a lie angle to the head, will this alone give it a hook face? The steeper the lie angle the more the hooked face?

Im close to enlightenment but not quite there. Is shaft lean a factor?

Keep it coming Im close, I've got lots of time and am all ears.

O.B.

And of course this inner smaller wheel is where the uncocking of power accumulator number TWO, Velocity Power on an incline plane attached to a straight plane line like a pitched roof on a house to its gutter, this velocity power is TRANSFERRED along the straight plane ‘gutter line’ by power accumulator number THREE, the Transfer Power with a lagging clubhead and a flat left wrist via a bent right wrist- The Flying Wedges. Before Homer’s death, he said he would teach the Golfing Machine through the Flying Wedges, replacing the Star Triad. Considering The FWs are covered in one single paragraph in the Yellow book, I can’t help but wonder what light he would have discovered himself about the FWs. Thankfully we have Yoda to throw some light into the darken corners of the book.

The Endless Discussion
 

Things to remember...
In the diagram of the Endless Belt of 2-K:
1. The Hand Speed determines the Belt Speed.
2. The Release Point determines the size of the Pully Wheel.
3. There is no #2 Accumulator in the drawing.

I've Been Belted
 

Drew,

You got me on that one.
I would think there is no #3 in the drawing

OK - So I actually looked in the book and low and behold, you are RIGHT!
I wonder why Homer didn't show any wristcock on the belt?
I could have sworn that belt showed #2.

Thanks,

Correct me if I'm wrong.
I would think Homer left it out since not every stroke has a wrist cock or a #2 PA. Staying on the delivery line is. But since we mostly speak of full swing strokes- uncocking on plane and transfering power on the delivery line fits the way Endless belt works in this discussion.

Play with dolls, much?
 

I'm referring to the idea that the primary lever is driven by something else other than itself! If you move the left arm with the left arm you get into a bit of trouble :sad2: My left arm is never limp, but it's structure must be courtesy of EA, not muscular tension in the left arm.

Required Reading
 

Required reading for golfing neophytes and all duped lemmings! I proved this with pvc pipe and golf balls! Place the ball in the pvc pipe and time (if you can) a straight away release. Of course there is no hook face to divert, it is amazing how often able bodied teens leave the ball in the pipe! We start from top!

Most people think that the only hooked faces are on their super-duper anti-slice drivers! Square is NOT square folks!

Im still not all the way there on this one. Assuming the golf ball is struck back of low point with say a baseball bat, it will go right. The golf club is therefore manufactured with a built in amount of shaft lean and an appropriate amount of bounce given its shaft lean and a square to the target face? Is this right? Is this what is meant by hook faced short irons?

Breaker, breaker Jeff Hull good buddy, come on.

For what its worth.....
 

I contacted Mizuno about "hook faced" irons question:

My question:

I own MP32 irons.
Is it true that irons are designed "hook faced" in that when properly soled, the shaft leans forward toward the target? If so, can you describe the reasoning why (I'm assuming it has to do with the golf club operating on an inclined plane) and what the hook angle specs are. Thanks

The response:

Thank you for contacting Mizuno USA. The MP 32 irons are designed as a neutral blade model and do not favor a hook or fade setup. This club will be one of the most workable options that we have available. Thanks again for your time and interest.

Best Regards,

Mizuno USA
http://www.mizunousa.com
Consumer Support Division
1-800-966-1211

I don't know if this response was from a clerk at customer support or a design engineer so use at your own risk. But its interesting nonetheless.