The Right Arm Swing
 

I'm hesitant to bring this subject up because for years its been the TGM dark horse so to speak. We have a huge amount of information about Hitting and Swinging, but one major subset of swinging; The Right Arm Swing has only been discussed from one perspective.

Some of the reasons why its been excluded from discussion include:

• It borders on Hitting due to the active right arm.
• If done incorrectly it can cause inflammation in the right elbow ligaments (Golfers Elbow - Medial Epicondylitis). 7-19.
• Its been soley associated with the Tomasello pattern and discussed ad-nauseum from that perspective.

If you are interested AND we can take Tomasello out of the discussion, I'd like to explore the correct way to perform the right arm swing. One that doesn't cause any damage and is done correctly. Lets assume that Tom identified a correct RAS pattern that works. No more discussion is required along those lines.

Its a relatively simple procedure and I have a video of Homer viewing what he believes is a right arm swing from one of his students. Bambam is putting the finishing touches on the video and it can be posted relatively soon.

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Should we explore it as deep as the component level?
Can it be done from an LBG perspective without bringing Toms pattern into the discussion?

Before you begin....ad-nauseum....there is no such word.

Have the video of homer and the right arm swinger...you can't tell!!! The better model is the man himself...Tom Tomasello!!! It's a shame LBG didn't put up the video of Tomasello's lesson with Jack DuQuette (circa 1987)....that video is awesome of Tommy's swing, I would put that swing up against any PGA tour player today!!! It's that good. Tommy's swing on that video is much better than any video of Tomasello on the gallery of this site. Top Form!!! That's why I sent it to Yoda. That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

DG

This is too funny...I was warned.

Well, I tried. Sorry folks. Looks like the RAS outside of Tom is relegated to the LBG closet, once again.
Too bad, it would have been a good discussion and probably supported Toms way.

In any case, if anyone is STILL interested I can delete all member post references to Toms pattern to keep this thread on track...that is...if there is any interest.

DG - look up the wiki reference to ad-nauseum and you'll see it refers to debates that have been discussed so much, people are tired of it.

Mr. Goosen is a right arm swinger I believe......


I have tried right arm swinging and it is very powerful,
only problem I found was when it's not working well I tended to hit
a lot of hooks and pull hooks.

There are a lot of RASers. That's why I want to discuss it.

Toms pattern is one slice out of many RAS patterns, which is why it should be explored and understood.

Bagger,

would love to see the video and the topic of "RAS" discussed, expanded beyond TT interpretation and pattern. LBG has been incredibly helpful in helping me understand the right arm's role in swinging and to discover the differences between lag loading and drive loading so bring on the video! Hats off to TT and to Yoda for posting his videos but maybe it's time to do a closer reading of "RAS".
I am a left arm hitter by the way
just kidding

Birdie Chance
Bronx, NY

Bagger, now's the time.

O.B.

Sources???
 

Many RAS patterns....please enlighten us. Can you reference your sources???

DG

I would like to learn about RAS.

More ways than one
 

As many as there are hitting patterns and left arm swinging patterns. Thousands? Hundreds of Thousands? Millions?
Actually, since RAS is a subcomponent of swinging, there is probably only tens of thousands of ways to do it. Just guessing.
Source is Homer Kelley and the 24 components with their associated variations through the 12 zones.

DG - I'm doing you a favor here. If you don't see it, you and the rest of the LBG membership may lose out on some good stuff.

Guys we need a ground swell of interest so Bagger can stop teasing us here. Come on lets get it started. Here is my first submission.

I asked Yoda a question once about my pre practice warm up regime in which amongst other things I hit short pitch shots with just my right arm.

It went something like this:

Me : "Im still swinging here though right?"

Yoda: "Yes"

Beyond that I asked not. All of this leads me to wonder about the possible existence of RAS putting. Although I have recently gone to using my feet to power my putting stroke having tried every other part of my body with mixed results.

Ras
 

I feel that I'm caught in the middle of hitting and swinging, the more I learn, the better I like it. Please Go On.

O.B.'s Right Arm Swing
 

Even though you were using only your Right Arm, you were Pulling the Club (lengthwise) through Impact. And when you do that -- with either the Right Arm or Left -- you are Swinging.

:)

Add me to the list, Bagger.

RAS - Swing or Hit?
 

I want to approach this based on what Homer Kelley said about RAS.

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When you use the active right arm as a RASer, is it a Swing or a Hit?

In 7-19 Homer says - The "Right Arm Swing" is simply 10-3-K with the loosened Wrists (7-1) and longitudinal acceleration using 7-19-3 above. Only with this "Rope Handle" procedure can the Right Arm be said to "Swing" - and still per 1-L-9 and -10.

One of the key definitions of a swing is allowing Centrifugal Force to release the club through impact. Even though the right arm is active and as Yoda said, pulling longitudinally, it is swinging the club because you are allowing Centrifugal Force actuate the #2 and #3 accumulators (uncock and roll). Hence the requirement for "Loosened Wrists" in The Bat Minor Stroke.

Just like the left arm swinger, Centrifugal Force uncocks the left wrist and right elbow (7-1). You have the choice to use non-automatic release types, but CF cannot be overridden or the Swing becomes a Hit.

There are some primary differences between Right vs Left arm swinging - Next up...The Bat!

I think this is a great subject and look forward to keeping up with this thread. I love hitting, but when I want to really get in to one, with a nice draw, especially with the driver, I focus on a nice big Right Forearm Fan going back, then pull down with my right arm. I don't think there is another pattern that I have found that lets me hit it any further.

What a treat and just when we needed it. Thanks Fella's

Did Homer really hear and answer the last question that was posed to him? Its hard to make out but it sounds something like:

Questioner: "So the natural inclination of a right hander (swinger) would be to right arm swing?"

Homer: "Ya, I think if he wants to swing he should be a right arm swinger. Its a good point"

Did Homer really mean to imply that right handed people playing golf right handed should be RAS if they want to swing? I am inclined to think there was a slight mis communication. That the "He" of Homers answer really refers to the golfer in front of them and his own active RAS.


Oh can I add Seve to the list of RAS? Any objections?

Whoa, wait a minute.

Does this bring into the realm of possibility, the golfer who radially accelerates the club with his left arm, the LAH? In our midst? Golfing amongst us?

Any video Bagger?

How 'bout Bigfoot? UFO's? Lynn, did you shoot the Bigfoot footage? Thats Luke in the monkey suit right?

"I want the TRUTH!"

Count me in too. I thinks I have some RAS in me as well. Knowledge is a beautiful thing when used for good!

Stroke Primer
 

Before I dive in, lets take a quick look at Basic Strokes in general.

There are 3 Major Basic Strokes based on Elbow Position at the release point; Pitch, Punch, and Push. Pitch elbow location is down and in front, Punch is located down and to the side, and Push is up and out. For the most part Swingers use either Pitch or Punch, and Hitters use either Punch or Push. For the sake of brevity I'm over-generalizing here, there is more details to be found in 10-3.

There are 7 Minor Basic Strokes which Homer classifies as Arm Motions. Every golf swing uses a Major Basic Stroke in combination with a Minor Basic Stroke. Said another way, every swing has a defined elbow position combined with a defined arm motion. Minor Strokes can also be combined to execute short shots. Homer lists all of the possible combinations in section 11-0-3.

In terms of the Right Arm Swing, Homer narrowly defines it as using the 10-3-K Minor Basic Stroke called "The Bat". The Bat can be combined with either a Pitch elbow location or Punch elbow location. Homer describes The Bat stroke as "Right Elbow Hinge" :wink: in chapter 11. Next step is to explore The Bat.

Trust me....you'll wind up back with Tommy, it could take 10 or 12 years...but, you'll see the light!!! :salut: Most of the answers are in the Tomasello videos....here's one comment to key in on...."it's one smooth motion"....that statement complies with Longitudinal acceleration. Tommy does not hit with that motion....eventhough on the Australia video.....he says "hit hit hit"...it's an automatic release. Reference letter video two....when Tommy talks about filming the swing with high speed cameras (just after the 14 minute mark).

DG

Like I said earlier, perhaps I'm doing you a favor. We'll see.

LBG thanks you for the commercial break. Now back to our regular programming.

Ignore button changed my life.

Tomasello You have been holding back all these years!!!
 

Mike....it's all u and Homer now......Homer, the advocate for using the right arm for swinging!!!!

One question, where is the ignore button located....I could sure use it!!!

DG

Right-arm plane.
 

For those who pull the club primarily by the right arm and drop it (below plane or to the right-arm plane) at starting-down, are right-arm swingers, Garcia is one typical.

No Left Arm Hit
 

The Left Arm is not in a position to Push (Drive); it can only Pull (Swing). Therefore, there can be no Radial Acceleration, i.e., Left Arm Hit.

You have it partially right. Those who pull the club primarily by the right arm are Right Arm Swingers.

Plane shift or the appearance of the clubshaft on the elbow plane is not exclusive to a specific procedure be it swinging, right arm swinging, or hitting. So it cannot be used as a "tell-tale"

Homer has some suggestions on how to identify a RASer.

The Bat
 

The Bat is an arm motion that uses either a Pitch or Punch elbow position. In its simplest form it is a Hit Stroke with the right wrist frozen in it impact alignments and the right arm pushing the club through impact by a straightening of the right elbow. As Homer says, "It is a quite uncomplicated procedure - The Club is an angled but rigid extension of the Right Forearm and the advisability of keeping both On Plane is the same as with the Left Arm version but is much more obvious." 10-3-K

When swinging it takes on different characteristics, most importantly that the swing center moves from the left shoulder to the right elbow. "...the Left Arm is ALWAYS SWINGING and the Right Forearm is ALWAYS DRIVING. But it is always a Left Arm Stroke unless the Right Elbow replaces the Left Shoulder as the center of Clubhead Arc." (10-3-K) I-F.

The other important distinction is the right wrist is not frozen. It is allowed to bend in varying degrees to allow Centrifugal Force to release (uncock) the clubhead and align (roll) the clubface.

Since the center of the clubhead arc is located in the Right Elbow there is less dependency on the Left Shoulder hinge pin. In terms of control, the clubshaft is held on plane by tracing a straight plane line with the right forearm 7-3., the clubhead is driven by pulling the lag pressure longitudinally with the right arm, and the clubface is still being aligned with the left wrist supported by centrifugal force.

You might ask, "Now that the center of the swing arc is the right elbow, shouldn't the ball be positioned further back in the swing to accomodate it?"

There are a couple of things to remember. First is the right forearm flying wedge with its bent and level right wrist will reach the same low point location whether the swing arc center is left shoulder or right elbow. The key is making sure there is enough right elbow bend to reach low point before the right arm is fully straight. The second point is that its still a two arm swing with the left arms role of providing checkrein action and clubface control.

To get a feel for RAS, Be O.B. - Take small pitch shots with the right arm only and left arm only. See and feel the differences and be sure to allow Centrifugal Force to uncock and roll the clubhead.

Homer left us with one Tip-off in 10-3-K for identifying a RAS and it was in most of the editions but removed from the 7th.

From the 6th edition:

"The center of the Clubhead orbit is readily transferred from the Left Shoulder to the Right Elbow. The Right Arm now is actually driving the Clubhead rather than the Left Arm and the Flat Left Wrist is now helpful but not essential – so the only tipoff to its use is the the ability to hit hard with a slightly Bent Left Wrist at Impact and/or throwing the Club in-line with the Right Arm during the Follow-through (4-D, 7-19)."

I believe Chuck Evans said that he spent time with TT. Chuck stated that TT's method was a "hit" with a horizontal hinge.

RAS At Your Own Risk
 

Homer provides a warning about RAS and I'm going to pass it on. In 7-19 when discussing RAS Homer warns the Hitter. "But with the Axe Handle procedures there must be a straight line piston to avoid injury of the right elbow ligaments. So, if there is a twinge in the elbow, you are Swinging the Right Arm."

In laymans terms this is called Golfers Elbow (medial epicondylitis) and it is similar to Tennis Elbow but located on the inside of the forearm rather than the outside. Its not as common as Tennis Elbow but common enough that there are Doctors offices busy treating this condition.

I'll leave you with a link but do a google search and you'll come up with plenty of information.

http://www.emedicine.com/sports/topic74.htm

Hope y'all enjoyed my little tutorial and video of Homer Kelley.

So, how do you RAS without picking up golfer's elbow?

Ligament Abuse
 

Here's my best educated guess since I've never experienced it.

Based on what I've read, the Golfers Elbow condition is due to aggravated over-use of a forearm/wrist motion; either right wrist bending forward and/or forearm rotation similar to a Tennis Topspin swing motion.

Both of these motions can happen in a RAS swing if the right forearm and elbow (swing center arc) are forcefully rolling through impact, then the clubshaft is snapped inline with the right forearm during follow through. I think this would have to be an intentional motion on the golfers part to try and manipulate the clubface with the right hand.

If the RASer allows Centrifugal Force and the left wrist to manage clubface alignments, perhaps this is easier on the ligaments. The clubshaft will still align itself with the right forearm during follow through because the right elbow is the swing arc center.

Again, this is my best guess. Maybe others who have experienced this condition can chime in.

No Injury!!!
 

I have been swinging with the right forearm in one form or another for a LONG TIME and NO INJURIES.....NOT ONE!!! Been swinging with the right forearm exactly as Tommy teaches (hitting and swinging) per the Australia and Myrtle Beach videos for the last 5 years.....NO INJURY....NA DA!!!

ONE OF THE BIGGEST BENEFITS OF THIS APPROACH....NO BACK ISSUES AT ALL. When I use to swing with the lower body.....man o man.....there were times when I could hardly get out of BED the next morning. Especially after an extended time from the game....

DG

Any More?
 

Anyone interested in discussing RAS further?

I've talked about Arm Motion and a little bit about the hands.

How about the RASers Pivot?
How does it differ from the Left Arm Swing? Or does it?

Would it differ? I wouldn't think so, at least not much, since both are dependent upon utilizing CF. I dunno.

Also, we could discuss whether right arm swinging is actually different mechanically from left arm swinging, or if it's only different perceptually (from the perspective of the player). Keep it going, Bags.

Hogan - Power Golf
 

Chip Shots: Hogan Said, The club is taken back with the hands only.
Right Elbow rest on right hip, insuring the arms, hands and club a
pivotal point. If you set this pivotal point up correctly you reduce
the margin or error on this shot.

Wonder if Hogan did this later on in his golf. Sounds like a right
arm siwing to me. I know in his waggle that he talks about the
right elbow going to the watch pocket. Maybe this is a throw back
to his chipping technique. I do not think that Hogan is a right arm
swinger but food for thought?

keep it going.

For pivot material and swinging with the right arm....checkout Mark Evershed's book "The Golf Solution" excellent book. Mark is a former student of Tom Tomasello. Check out the number 2 Letter series vid of Tomasello.

During a month lay off from the game....I read Mark's book...this was about a year after I decided to learn the swing mechanics that Tom Tomasello teaches on the Australia chapter series video (late 2003 or early 2004 is when I began the process). After reading Mark's book every thing clicked on how to swing with the right arm. The first tournament I entered I won after reading his book.

http://www.markevershedgolf.com/inde...owse&pageid=36

DG

i have read the book. i have taken lessns from mark. i have been to his school. i have seen all the t.t. vids. i have the lesson dvd that you sent me , and i appreciate the kindness. now, i would like to hear what bagger has to say about the right arm swing.

I had some elbow problems early this spring and a bit last week. Although this is my first post here, I've been following this thread closely, as I believe I tend to waiver between right arm swinging and left arm swinging.

Spring elbow problems: The main culprit for me was raquetball (overuse after coming out of new baby hibernation), BUT for a couple weeks golf made the problem worse. For me, it was pretty much what you described above: overactive right hand/forearm, unbending right wrist, not relying on CF, etc.. I also believe the motion to only be part of it; all those swing problems tended to end up with a not-so-perfect, harsher impact, too much down w/ a deep divot, etc... the vibrations and impact really made the tendinitis worse for me. Once I took it easy for a week or two and did some more basic/aquired motion, things were for the most part back to normal.

I had a little bit of a problem last week when softball season started and we had games and batting practice on back-to-back nights. It was the same deal - missing the sweet spot of the bat = extra harsh impact and vibrations.