The Right Arm and the Flail.
 

Having my right arm control the flail is blowing my mind...

Although my right arm Hits fairly well, I just can't seem to get it involved in my Swinging motion. With hitting my left arm is completely passive, but with Swinging my right arm is completely passive.

My swinging motion uses the left arm as a flail, very #4PP and #4ACC-centric, with a slight 10-18-B Double Wrist Cock at the top of my backstroke, although generally, through impact my left wrist releases freely and vertically with no right wrist breakdown.

Extensor action and manipulation of my left arm by the right seem to throw me off completely while swinging.

The good news is, living in upstate New York, I've got all winter to work on it. :laughing1

Anyways, what are your thoughts on the subject of the right arm's role in the Flail? How do you keep it from disrupting Centrifugal Force? Any left arm-centric folks have successful conversion stories they'd like to share? lol

Thanks.

Try This
 

" Remember, even for Swingers, the Right Arm is never completely passive.

The Right Triceps is always active -- from Start Up to Follow-Through -- with Extensor Action (the Right Arm stretching the Left through Pressure Point #1 / the heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb).

Also, driven by the Right Shoulder, the Right Forearm Flying Wedge -- the Right Forearm, Bent Right Wrist and Lag Pressure Point #3 (first joint of the right forefinger) -- will always deliver its 'stiff-wristed slap' (Major Basic Stroke / 10-3-B / usually heavy laden with Clubhead Lag Pressure) directly at the Aiming Point (usually, the Ball).

So, the 'dirty little secret' of The Golfing Machine is that, Hitting or Swinging, Four Barrels or Three, the Stroke is very much a "right arm approach to the whole game" (First Edition / 1-F)." - Yoda

This was a liberating revelation to me. The right arms is never completely passive!

Forearm
 

As Brian Gay states, the forearm is the key to the whole thing.
Think of it as your own personal Tour Guide !!!:golf:

Okie
 

Okie, your views which is awesome couldn't agree more, Yoda's quote hit's the nail on the head.
Do you think this is a mistake a lot of swingers make by not applying this?
I'm interested to hear your views on this?
:)

Passive Activity?
 

I think it has a lot to do with not knowing the difference between active and passive. I'm not talking semantics, but rather kinesthetics. How does active feel to you? I swing, but I feel that right tricep, what I am really feeling is extensor action, but if you have never felt your triceps engaged in this manner it has the feel of some kind of activity. I simply do not know how one can not sense your right arm as somewhat active when it is being straightened, as opposed to straightening it. Pulling or pushing it is straightening, and of course this induces a right tricep feel of some kind. It took "hitting" to teach me the difference between active/passive. I was very surprised to find how active passive really is! Passive Activity? :eyes: It took a journey to appreciate where I live! The danger of course is switting. Understanding the role of the right shoulder has allowed me to keep the hitting/swinging seperate ...fly-wheel v. launching pad.

Okie
 

Thank you,
I agree, I use to teach all my students to do both swing or hit, so they could choose what suits them, In my early days I made this mistake myself and was very interested
in your views and experience.
Switting I'm not sold on a 4 barrel swing could be a big debate cause this is what you could call switting. swing from the told and hit at the bottom.

Most tour players swing from the top and hit at the bottom when measured, although video wouldn't indicate this.

I swing from the top ad hit a the bottom, work for me.
but I can do either, I can swing and know how to hit, I love being a hitter.

long drivers hit at the bottom

The way the right elbow is positioned and the arm role in supporting the assembly really makes a difference IMO.

if the right arm is in a slightly more pitch position . in a position to pull the shaft longitudinally.. swing. Slower rate of closing. Fast overtaking.

and fans open.. more punch position.. it will be in a position to push the shaft.. Faster rate of closing . Slow overtaking.

Closing the Door
 

Excellent, nuke. I've bolded areas of emphasis:

We're talking about the #3 Accumulator (Left Arm / Clubshaft Angle) . . . and its Maximum versus Minimum Trigger Delay, right?

:salut:

Yoda

What do you think of Biomechanic's idea that one should swing from the top and hit at the bottom?

I get the impression from reading your archived posts that you believe that a swinger uses the PA release sequence of 4:2:3 and that there is no active hitting (active release of PA #1) in the late phase of a swinger's downswing action because centrifugal action alone accounts for release for the club and that there would be no benefit, and a considerable risk of harm, if a golfer attempted to actively hit at the bottom by actively releasing PA #1.

Jeff.

Dr. Dolittle's pushmepullyou
 

Can be done.
Difficult to do correctly.
Not worth the effort for most.

Drewitgolf

Could you please expound on how you would accomplish that goal?

I thought that if one had an optimized pivot action with optimized release of PA#4 that it would thereby optimize release of PA#2 via a centrifugal action, and that it wouldn't allow for any additional club release power via PA#1 because the club had already been released at an optimal speed.

Jeff

Risky Business
 

Re-read last two lines of 2-M-3. Only with a driver, only with a driver, only with a driver when there is a need for maximum power and you can stand the risk. The Swinger’s can further accelerated the LEFT ARM and loaded Left Wrist with a strong PP#1 (#1 is part of the Arms not the Hands) to support the Pull of Centrifugal Force. If the Swinger tries to accelerate the clubshaft at PP#3 (which is Hitting), he runs into the risk of overriding centrifugal force, which is a power loss and usually results in a Bent Left Wrist at Impact.

Drewitgolf

A further question.

If the right arm applies active power to PP#1 to supply more power to the left arm in a driver swing, when should that occur? If it occurs near-impact, will the right arm-induced acceleration of the left arm prevent the left arm from slowing pre-impact - some people believe that left arm slowing is a necessity in the late downswing to allow the club release phenomenon to happen as a kinetic link COAM phenomenon.

Jeff.

Feel the pressure
 

Hi Jeff

I think I managed to achieve this one year ago while experimenting Hitting.

I'm not an expert as Drewitgolf, Okie or nuke99 but I'll try to do my best to relate this experience using TGM terminology.

When I disovered this site a few years ago, I was amazed to discovered that Swinging was not the only way to hit the ball and decided to give a try to Hitting.

Hitting basic motion first, then acquired to understand the mechanics and the physics.
I was hitting "by the book" and everything was good.

Then I went to Total Motion by adding "2-M-4 Body Power"...
But at that time I didn't knew the differences between 2-M-4 for Hitting and Swinging and started to use Pivot Thrust as a Swinger: blasting the primary lever assembly from my chest using CF.

I was in fact using PA#4 as a swinger and PA#1,#2+#3 (simultaneous) as a Hitter! Some kind of Switting :eyes:

The results: Amazing! Power (a ton of lag!) with never seen before accuracy at such distances.

What I did:
- use PA#4 as a swinger: the whole primary assembly accross the chest then rotary body power to blast it of the chest,
- at some point in the downswing, you'll feel the release of PA#4 through the pression descreasing on PP#4,
- as soon as you feel that (for me it's almost when my hand pass in front of my right leg), you activate your right arm to drive the primary lever assembly toward aiming point.

Interestingly enough, I felt that the activation of the right arm occuring at the moment PA#4 start to release came along with the desire to maintain the heavy feel at PP3 constant during the downstroke.

Think about it like that:
- When you load the power package using PA#4, you feel a heavy clubhead (lets say you feel the Power Package weighting 1 ton :laughing1 )
- Then when PA#4 releases, "you loose weight". You will go to 1 ton to 0 ton at PA#4 full relase (wich is well after the ball).
- So, if you rely only on PA#4 to strike the ball, your Power Package will feel 500kg at impact
- But, the right arm driving will evenly replace this weight loss (for me it even feels heavier than initialy).

The result is that by focusing on maintaining a constant pression of the Power Package in your hands (always the same old story :) ) you will precisely know WHEN you'll need to activate the right arm thrust.

:)

Master Yoda..

effect on acc 1 on 2 /3 and the inline condition. Sequential vs overlaping release in various degree ( how deep is the elbow).


Thank you.

Sir,

it always puzzle me, How important are Zone 1 in your opinion on this?

Yodeli

You wrote-: "What I did:
- use PA#4 as a swinger: the whole primary assembly accross the chest then rotary body power to blast it of the chest,
- at some point in the downswing, you'll feel the release of PA#4 through the pression descreasing on PP#4,
- as soon as you feel that (for me it's almost when my hand pass in front of my right leg), you activate your right arm to drive the primary lever assembly toward aiming point."

I used to swing the same way - first use the pivot thrust to activate release of PA #4 and then use active right arm thrust (active release of PA#1) at some point in the mid-downswing. However, I found that this "switting" approach was too dependent on timing, and at times the active right arm thrust interfered with the natural release of PA#2 which occurs passively via centrifugal action. When I discovered Yoda's archived posts I came to understand why it is a mistake to use a "switting" approach and that it is better to either be a hitter (1:2/3) or a swinger (4:2:3).

I can understand the use of enough right triceps action to maintain a "feel" of constant pressure at PP#3 during the downswing so that the right forearm keeps up with the clubshaft through the mid-late downswing - without actually releasing PP#1 via an active right elbow straightening thrust action.

Jeff.

yodelli
 

awesome, when we measured tour players most guys swing and hit at the bottom.
This is measured science, not using video which won't indicate.
the illusion of golf are deeper ten we know.

people can argue if they like but this is what most tour players do when measured.

Nuke99, zone 1 is the fuel to a good golf swing only if motion performed right.
you have bad body motion no matter how educated your hands are, you can't hit the ball.

95% of golfers have wrong perceptions of the right body motions in a golf swing.
but then 95% of golf coaches don't know either.but as i've said before, they are mechanics not specialised in human body motion

Biomechanic - you wrote-: "when we measured tour players most guys swing and hit at the bottom. This is measured science, not using video which won't indicate."

How did you determine (in a measured scientific manner) that tour players (who swing) hit at the bottom? What is your definition of "bottom"? How did you scientifically determine they that were using active right triceps thrust action to release PA#1 at the "bottom"?

Jeff.

Jeff

I totaly agree with you.

Switting produced the best Golf ever for me but it only lasted a week! :crybaby:

It was getting very demanding to repeat the proper timing day after day. I had to be intensely focused on timing.

Swinging is easier to repeat and a lot more "effortless power"...but still less accurate for me.

However I still dream of the unicorn!
Mainly because I still don't get the difference in 2-M-4 between "consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger's essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact" and "or as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter's loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed".
What is the difference between "blasting the left arm into orbit" and "supplying the initial acceleration of Power Package"?
Seems pretty much the same to me?
Can't you supply the initial acceleration of the Power Package by blasting the left arm into orbit"??? :think:

Yodeli and Jeff,

but both hitter and swinger can/should use PP4 .


Hitters are by no means. ARM only.

The reason of way too active right arm is detrimental to golf is simply the loss of rhythm and right wrist bent ( overacceleration). making INCONSISTENT low point.

The Key, I learn , is RHYTHM. learning to use accumulator4 dependantly of accumulator 1 , 2 , 3 . with zone 1. They are inter dependant. every part of the swing helps IMHO.

Just a thought.

Yodeli

I am going to let Yoda answer your question as to how a hitter uses the pivot action to turn a triple barrel action (1:2/3) into a four barrel action (4:1:2/3) and how the pivot-thrust of a hitter differs from the pivot-thrust of a swinger. I suspect that a hitter doesn't use the pivot thrust to fully release PA#4, but merely uses the pivot thrust to partially release PA#4. I would be interested in knowing whether a four barrel hitter delays the active release of PA#1 until a certain time point in the downswing, and how he times that action so that it blends seamlessly with the pivot activated release of PA#4.

Jeff.

Jeff I can't elaborate how we do this and this is why T.P.I scratch their heads they don't know how we can measure what we do, one they don't have the technology and two we aren't going to tell them.
Did you know Jeff that Greg Rose stole Chris's papers and research and gave them to cheetam , but it's useless to them cause they haven't the technology to work it out.
Sorry jeff this is one secret we won't give away, people can argue we don't care. Greg Norman,faldo.price,els alot of tour player worked with us .
Who can argue, when we get results we helped all these boys.

Great SIR :salut: .. . the arm can only go so far even though they have speed. without its complex motion and sequence , the ball flight cannot be consistent as well.

swing at the top and hits at the bottom. has that anything to do with the pivot ? we pull the arms down to release point and the Pelvis start to release does help push or hit.... ? thanks..

IMO.. the Pivot in the downswing have 2 main stage . First part being more lateral being dominant , 2nd part rotary being dominant. there is no pure lateral or pure rotation about it ...

also A beginner will have too much rotary throughout the swing thus slicing ( too much out in path. ) while a more advanced player hooker have way too much slide ( in out) . then will figure how not to hook and not to slice... Kinda resembles the path I went through as an improving player

Interested to hear much more.

Unicorn
 

Exactly my thought:
In my game I noticed that the more body power I use (a lot of PA#4), the more accurate and consistent I am!
This is funny because it goes along with significantly increased power wich is usualy and by common sense associated with unconsistency!

If I Swing or Hit Total Motion with not much PA#4 I tend to lose consistency.

In my opinion, focusing on something else than maintaining/(increasing!) a constant pressure in your hands cannot lead you to doing this properly.

For example, if your goal is to maintain the heavyness of the clubhead through PP#3 when PA#4 starts to release, you will naturally feel the necessity to have your right elbow in a push condition rather than in a pull condition (Caution, we are talking here of Switting or 4 barrel wich is very special).

Consider this:
2-M-4 (my unicorn!) says:
- Swinger: consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger's essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact
- Hitter: or as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter's loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed

Do you think that Switting/4 barrel could be: "consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger's loaded Power Package into orbit toward Impact" :eyes:

Could it be that instead of blasting only the left arm, you blast the whole Power Package assembled in a push condition - and then push!
Unicorn?

What i used to think.. I can say this is the exact thing that cause overacceleration.. With any shot, we need RHYTHM.


I think ... the term hitting being a push and a pull had created alot of argument, recreation of the term ( switting) in the TGM community. Not exactly what is really intended. Maybe the explanation is half complete.

Swinging and hitting is more on how we treat and load the shaft.. one longitudinal one Axial. In both cases the arm have to straighten. Neither actively NOR passively -- BUT IN RHYTHM.

My understanding.. THE HIT at the bottom have nothing to do with the active independant straightening of the right arm to make an Manipulated HIT. switting in high level golf never meant to be that.

It have to do with the complex pivot sequencing in rhythm with the proper arm straightening.

Study 7-3 in depth .. less ability to push with a pitch elbow .. that's correct.. but doesn't mean a swinger have can't PUSH in the bottom of the swing. the missing piece is the dynamic pivot motion, the arm can't move very far ... can they?

nuke
 

[quote=nuke99;57409]

swing at the top and hits at the bottom. has that anything to do with the pivot ? we pull the arms down to release point and the Pelvis start to release does help push or hit.... ? thanks..

It does have an impact but at the end of the day a player chooses either to swing or hit,
As for the hip pivot, for hitting and swinging there is no difference, the hips move and function the same in both swings. they turn the same amount on the back swing and into impact. this is if they have the right body motion

To best honest the difference is, either you decide to drive the right arm home or prefer centrifical force. It's up to the individual. the human body motion are simular but they are loading up different muscles is all.
I believe it's not up to the coach to decided for them either, show them how to do both let them experiment then let they decide.
Tour players hit at the bottom to get better compression and distance,produce better ball flight,
switter will smoke it past a swinger or hitter every time.

But in my mind there is no wrong or right way it's what ever works, I think most people close their minds and this restricts them to try experiment further.
I don't care if someone is a switter if this works for them and they can break par use it.
I'm a proud switter and I can break par, I'll never change, I can swing or hit if I like, but I love to swing and then hit at the bottom works well for me.

What interests me is switters are a big no,no but most tour players are switters? I'm yet to understand why everyone is against it so much

Just a thought
 

Switting like knitting can get you into a tangled mess! TGM to me is a lot about keeping what is seperate and distinct, seperate and distinct...kinda like linen ain't cotton, and a cow ain't an ass! If you understand the seperate identities i.e. you actually know what you are doing...then I think Mr. Kelley himself would wish you well! I think for all but the talented "body" mixing ain't fixing. "Can we rescue a word and discover a universe?" - Edwyn Hoskyns. To me HK gave us a working vocabulary rooted in reality (semantic hair splitting aside.) A vernacular by which we could articulate "what Is" thereby creating a distinction from "what seems as if" This is I imagine why he never dealt in dogma as it related to specific patterns. He gave us a box of workable parts and said go forth and build! We build knowing that by law it is structurally sound! I am glad however for Yoda telling us what the man would do if he were just starting to play golf!

lets see if in reality whats seems if or what is. Top 10 in world can you list the pure swingers and pure hitters ? and why

?
 

Does pure swinging include manipulated hands swingers?

lol stop cheating okie

So how about the right shoulder in all this? (pivot thrust, right/left independence/cooperative issue)

An on plane right shoulder in the downstroke is just as important as an on plane right forearm, don't you think?

How do you incorporate an on plane right shoulder in your downstroke, swinging? Is it simply look, look, look for swingers, or do some use it actively as hitters do, as a brace etc..

Nuke99

You wrote-: "Study 7-3 in depth .. less ability to push with a pitch elbow .. that's correct.. but doesn't mean a swinger have can't PUSH in the bottom of the swing. the missing piece is the dynamic pivot motion, the arm can't move very far ... can they?"

Why would a swinger want to push at the "bottom" if he has an optimized release of PA #4 and PA #2? If those two PAs are optimally released in a sequential manner then the club is traveling at maximum speed during the pre-impact phase of the swing. How can one increase the clubhead speed by applying a push action in the later downswing? If one applies a push action via active release of PA#1 just before the club reaches the delivery position via pressure at PP#3, then the club could be induced to travel erratically because one will have interfered with the natural physics of the release action. Also, if one can induce the left arm to travel faster in the late downswing via active force-pressure at PP#1, then one cannot have performed the pivot action correctly - because an optimized pivot action should easily be able to provide enough power to catapult the left arm into impact at a sufficient speed (enough power to fully release PA #4)

Biomechanic

I don't think that Chris Welch of Xenolink or the researchers at TPI can measure active release of PA #1 at the bottom of the swing (whatever you mean by "bottom"). I believe that a researcher would have to insert muscle probes into the right triceps muscle to measure its degree of active contraction at the "bottom" of the swing to differentiate between active release of PA#1 and passive release of PA#1.

Jeff.

the difference is Power . I know coz i tried. easily lost more than a club.


Push at bottom does not necessary mean 100% with the arm. maybe 50%. It won't work with 100% arm.

Jeff, you wrote:

I see it like this:
Imagine you are in a center of a rotating merry go round.
Your flying wedges are set, horizontal to the ground: your right forearm is on plane of the rotating merry go round).
You are halfway in the downswing.
Your right elbow bent and in a push condition.

If you stay static in this position, your clubhead travels at the angular speed of the merry go round (this is your body power).
And to your point of view, your whole Power Package is static and ready to be fired as a hitter.
If you now drive with your right arm, your clubhead will travel at the angular speed of the merry go round PLUS the speed of the thrust :eyes:

As Biomechanics says:
I confirm from my experience that this is a HUGE difference: a real gain in distance + deadly accuracy.
Really impressive.

The key is to blast the whole power package set in its pushing condition instead of only the left arm.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if your merry go round decelerates before impact, you won't be able to catch up the primary lever assembly with your right arm thrust as it separates from the chest (not a problem in a swing and supposed to work like that), resulting in some kind of strange throwaway feel!

Yodeli - you wrote-:

"If you stay static in this position, your clubhead travels at the angular speed of the merry go round (this is your body power). And to your point of view, your whole Power Package is static and ready to be fired as a hitter.
If you now drive with your right arm, your clubhead will travel at the angular speed of the merry go round PLUS the speed of the thrust."

What you seem to be saying is that the pivot-thrust throws the power package assembly intact at a certain rotational speed and that you can increase the speed of the clubhead by an active release of PA #1.

However, I understand the pivot-thrust as more than a throw of the intact power package assembly down to waist level. I see the pivot-thrust of a swinger as catapulting the left arm off the chest wall so that the left arm travels faster than the pivot thrust (merry-go-round) and then sequentially having the PA#2 release via centrifugal action so that the clubhead travels much faster than both the merry-go-round or the left arm (which is traveling faster than the merry-go-round due to the complete release of PA#4). Under those optimized conditions, I cannot understand how adding right arm thrust (active release of PA #1) can increase clubhead speed.

Jeff.

You Got Me!
 

I am a compulsive eater as well! I am just adhering to the seperate identities expressed in TGM! But you have exposed my lack of research in the realm of what the best actually do! HK even maintained that it was not an easy task to distinguish a hitter from a swinger...and I guess a switter as well! I used to be a enthusiatic observer of the strokes of the top players...not so much any more. I have learned that what I see is not always what is happening. So I capitulate!

Agreed Jeff

What you describe is the correct Swinger action but keep in mind that we are talking about Switting and somewhat playing with fire!

IMO, the subtle difference is that you catapult the intact power package of the chest HAVING the right elbow in a push condition as opposed as
catapulting the left arm only having the right elbow in a pulling condition (pitch).

Yodeli

What get's the right elbow into a push position, rather than a pitch position?

I suspect that it may be due to a non-optimum downswing pivot thrust action.

Here is a swing video of Ben Hogan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

I think that he gets his right elbow into a pitch position due to a "correct" downswing pivot action. Then, when he lets go and completes the downswing (at time point 33 seconds into the video) he fully releases PA #4 so that his left arm swishes across the front of the body.

I suspect that some switters are not using the pivot thrust properly to fully release PA#4 (like Hogan) and that they are only driving the power package down to waist level with their pivot action. Then, they use an active release of PA#1 to drive the left arm forward (to fully release PA#4) - they "hit at the bottom". Biomechanic argues that tour players do this (hit at the bottom) but I don't agree. I would be interested in reading Yoda's opinions on this issue.

Jeff.

Its always interesting reading Hogan stuff and there is always some video at an angle to support some theory made up by the theorist.
He may well have been ..elbow/hands/club earlier but lots of footage later where he is hands/elbow/club