The Dividing Line...
 

Yoda...

Would you agree that the major dividing line between your instruction versus Tom Tomasello's of TGM comes from 6-K-0 Pivot Stroke Delivery and 6-L-0 Non-Pivot Stroke Delivery....your instruction taking the 6-K-0 route and Tommy's taking the 6-L-0 direction. I seriously believe this is where all of the confusion is coming from...

I also believe this is the reason why Tommy described and taught the 10-20 triggers the way he did...I guarantee you it all came from Homer.

DG...

Tommy Turned . . . Trust Me
 

Are you seriously suggesting that Tommy taught a Non-Pivot Stroke? With only "incidental body motion"?

:confused1

Must have learned the wrong movements???
 

Lynn,

Then please tell the class why Tommy started the downstroke with everything (uncocking of the right forearm, the right shoulder, the right forearm and left forearm, the left wrist) for full golf swings per the TGM swinging procedure and you teach students to start the downswing with the lower body??? You and Tommy both studied with the man himself and here we have two GSED level instructors teaching TGM in two completely different ways and both are saying their teaching TGM like the man wanted.... and in his GI interview Tommy said..."Learning the principles took time I knew the information was what I was looking for, but truthfully, after those sessions it was still over my head. Eventually, though, I learned both the movements and how to communicate them." So Tommy eventually learned the movements and how to communicate them......who did he learn them from...Homer Kelley??? So, what your saying is Tommy learned the wrong movements? Must have been asleep at the wheel or something to that effect???

Dave

Dave

It may be true that TT taught a "right arm throw" swing to some students - as per the Lee Dietrick videos.

However, it is not necessarily true that he learnt that "right arm throw" swing approach from HK, or that it necessarily represented his main TGM teaching approach.

I have the 12 DVD series of TT giving a TGM class over 5 days. In that class he goes over the TGM curriculum. In that class, he definitely taught a pivot-driven swing as the primary approach to a full golf swing.

He may have changed his thinking in the last few years of his life, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his last/final thoughts about the golf swing came from HK.

Jeff.

Myopic Moments
 

No, DG . . .

What I am saying is that you have absolutely no concept of the Non-Pivot Stroke and its required Delivery per 6-L-0. Any argument that Tom Tomasello did not teach his pupils to Pivot is ludicrous on its face.

You are so caught up in the Tommy-Tree that you cannot see the Tommy-Forest.

:(

One TGM and Only One....
 

Lynn,

I was actually cutting you a break thinking that some how there are two philosphies to TGM....a lower body startdown and a upper body version. Hey, if we want to stick to one version. I'll stick with Tomasello.

DG

Not Tomasello's Spin...that's getting OLD!!!
 

I studied with Tommy personally in 1993 and on audio tape I have Tommy saying he wasn't selling his personal view/spin/opinon of TGM. In fact as he was teaching me the magic of the right forearm, cocking and uncocking the right elbow WHILE SWINGING, he mentioned Homer....that Homer said you couldn't practice that move too slowly. Hence, the 10-step sequence drill on the Australia video series. Hmmm, you can find that drill in Chapter 8. How about that...

Tommy taught that right arm swing to a lot of people...per the GI interview, he was given the opportunity to teach it to the whole golfing community.

DG

No Lynn...I will study something until I know it...forwards and backwards, left to right....just like you have attempted to learn TGM.

I was looking at from a delivery stand point not a zero pivot perspective. You guys...amazing.

DG

Premature Release
 

And then there are those of us who know that when you begin straightening the right elbow, you trigger the release. And when you straighten the right elbow to start the club down from the top, you trigger the release from the top. And when you trigger the release from the top . . .

Oh, never mind!

:laughing9

poorest choice of words
 

Surely, you could have chosen a different word than "attempted". You're suggesting that Lynn was unsuccessful. That's the fast track to losing all credibility. :naughty:

I have no problem with your passion in worshiping Tommy. But, look at the points that Lynn has made and follow the logic. If it's possible, do it without the Tommy glasses.

the dividing line
 

I was with Nick Mastrani when he interviewed Tom for the 1991 Golf Illustrated article. The two of us took lessons from Tom. My experience clearly was that Tom want me to pull down on the handle of the club at the same time as I was shifting weight from back to front foot. Tom said it really is all about rotary motion. I am sure he taught different people in different ways depending on what they needed.

DG - you wrote-: "I studied with Tommy personally in 1993 and on audio tape I have Tommy saying he wasn't selling his personal view/spin/opinion of TGM."

I personally believe that everybody who personally studied with HK is teaching his personal interpretation of HK's ideas when he teaches TGM. HK's work is enormously complex and every student of TGM understands it slightly differently because of inherent limitations in their intellectual capacity to understand the complex physical/mechanical/biomechanical issues involved. Based on the 12-DVD series, I think that TT had a marked intellectual incapacity to truly understand HK's TGM system - compared to Yoda's intellectual understanding. What most impresses me about Yoda's TGM insights is their penetrating depth, their clarity of expression and their consistent consonance with respect to the TGM text. I suspect that Yoda's understanding of TGM is many orders of magnitude greater than TT's understanding. Based on the 12-DVD TGM-teaching series, I love TT's enthusiasm for teaching TGM, his gifted hands (amazing ability to perform all the TGM movements with amazing skill/finesse), but I don't think that he had the intellectual gifts required to fully understand all the intricacies of TGM (to the degree that Yoda can). If two people personally studied with HK with the same level of enthusiasm, intensity and dedication, it doesn't mean that they ended up with an equal level of understanding of TGM, and that their final beliefs re: TGM are equally valid.

Jeff.

Hard Saying
 

Dang! What is apparent is often better left unsaid! I agree, but comparison is a dirty business (that is why I told MENSA to go to hell:laughing9 )

Lynn does set the bar high, that is true. :laughing9 But TT's contributions to TGM community are many, and his teachings continue to inform and inspire! :)

Oh never mind! I agree, you're still learning....:)

Oh never mind....no contribution here...

Yes, you're still learning too. All rotary motion...what??? :laughing9

Please re-read your message you're contradicting yourself. It's a shame you write fairly well, but your missing the mark on this one. Big time..."marked intellectual incapacity"....you could get your butt whopped/whipped for that one. That's a pretty ignorant comment...about as ignorant as they come...

Finally I can agree...

I originally wrote this thread to find some common ground....and I get blasted off the golf course....it's not for slow play.

Thanks Andy R...and there will be golfers who will win Tournaments!!!

Penick's Magic Move Revisited
 

Thanks for this insight, broberts.

This is how I remember Tommy teaching the Start Down Move (which, of course, is how it really works). In fact, this is precisely The Magic Move Harvey Penick taught in his now famous Little Red Book (page 96):

"To start your downswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body."

There is a big difference between your recollection of Tommy's advice to "pull down as you shift" and DG's steadfast demand that we uncock the right elbow from the top and in advance of any lower body action.

:confused1

Sorry guys that is incorrect....for a swinging stroke using 10-20-B, the golfer starts the downstroke by uncocking the right elbow through the muscles of the right forearm the pivot responds with a sliding action...then a rotational action during the release phase. Tommy executes it on both the Chapter and Letter series videos.

It's Right Hip Right Forearm/Right Forearm Left Hip.....not Right Hip Right Forearm/Left hip Right Forearm.

Lynn, I know you're just trying to give me hard time...

DG

the dividing line...
 

TT definitely did say to me, "right hip, right arm, right arm, left hip." Then he continued, You have to shift your weight as you pull down on the club. If one does not shift weight to lead foot at beginning of downswing, it seems to me, they would spin out rather than pivot.

Hip / Weight Shift With A Stationary Head
 

The Hip Shift is the Weight Shift.

When the Weight shifts, the Hip Shifts.

When the Hip Shifts, the Spine -- the Axis for the Shoulder Turn -- Tilts (lower portion toward the Target / upper portion fixed by the Stationary Head). This enables the Right Shoulder to thrust and support the Hands directly toward the Ball. Now . . .

The Hands, in full command of the Hands-Controlled Pivot, can aim their Straight Line Thrust toward the Ball.

Drill: From the Top of the Backstroke, throw a golf ball at a golf ball on the ground. Clear the Right Hip, then . . . Straight Line Thrust toward the Ball. No matter the actual Path of the Hands -- Straight Line or Circle -- that's the idea.

:salut:

That is one of your best! As simple yet complete a description of the transition and downstroke as you will ever find!
Thanks , Yoda- not tiring despite 7000 + posts!:golf:

And do you swing the club today as Tommy instructed???

DG

I'm JUST FULL OF BS
 

EVERYONE READING THIS....

Just go to the Gallery....under free videos....click on the Tomasello videos. Start with "Letter Series Video #3....then watch Letter #1 and #2....now who's BSing who???

DG

no love for the triceps?
 

Above Bold, Italics, and Underline by YodasLuke.

Since we're all in agreement :roll: :-& that the answer for every question is "the Magic of the Right Forearm", the following will most certainly be a mute point.

The posterior compartment of the arm is an anatomic compartment which contains muscles which are all supplied by the radial nerve. This compartment is also known as the "extensor compartment", extension being its main action.

The muscles of this compartment are the triceps brachii and anconeus muscle.

The triceps brachii is a large muscle containing three heads (lateral, medial, and middle). The anconeus is a small muscle stabilizes the elbow joint during movements. Some embryologists consider it as the fourth head of the triceps brachii.

Additionally, by starting the downstroke with the straightening of the Right Arm, you will succeed in becoming the shortest player in your group.

Happy G.O.L.F.ing

It's a shame....so many excellent tid-bits of information on those Tomasello vids especially the video series that came out this year. Someone might figure it and run with it...I hope it happens.

Chapter video 2 and 5 and Letter video number 2.....Yeeeeee Hawwwwww....

DG

DG wrote-: "Sorry guys that is incorrect....for a swinging stroke using 10-20-B, the golfer starts the downstroke by uncocking the right elbow through the muscles of the right forearm the pivot responds with a sliding action...then a rotational action during the release phase."

That's anatomically impossible. The right forearm muscles cannot straighten the bent/folded right elbow. That function is performed by the UPPER arm triceps muscle.

Forerarm muscles can only perform the following anatomical actions-:

1) Flex, extend, abduct or adduct the fingers and thumb.
2) Palmarflex or dorsiflex the wrist.
3) Radially deviate or ulnarly deviate the wrist.
4) Pronate or supinate the hand.

Forearm muscles cannot flex or extend the elbow joint because they are distal (peripheral) to the elbow joint.

If anybody contests my opinion, please be so kind to name the right forearm muscle which is "supposedly" capable of straightening the right elbow joint.

Jeff.

It Triggers the straightening (that's part of the "Magic" of the right forearm, it can trigger what I believe is the straightening of the tricep muscle)...if you concentrate on the tricep muscle of the right arm you will over accelerate the golf club and will surely go into a condition of club-head throw-away....remember, section 10-20 is called Trigger Type. Per Tom Tomasello those triggers are downstroke triggers. 5 ways to start the club down. In a one or two year period, I took the time to experiment with using the tricep muscles versus the right forearm....in a week or two of using the tricep muscles, I started to lose the sweet feeling of clubhead lag. Once I went back to using the right forearm the sweet feeling of clubhead lag returned. I did this experiment on two occasions, so I know the difference between using the tricep muscles and using the right forearm. I don't need to know the bio-mechanics, I proved it through trial and error.

Reference the book....in 1-L, it says' "The Right Forearm is always driving" and in Tomasello's Chapter 2 video Tommy says"....drive that right forearm, to a long right arm...". In 6-B-2-0, it reads, "Centifugal Force, Accumlator #1, the muscles of both forearms, any--or all--are available to actuate this assembly". So, what does actuate mean....to activate, to set into motion, put into action. So now can you see the connection between this and the idea of triggering....setting the swing into motion.

DG

i thought TT says lower the right shoulder starting down which then forces the left hip back to where it began. his sequence being... right hip-right forearm--right shoulder-left hip.

In the Australia video that is part of a drill....however, Tommy did teach a 10-20-C swing (Not on any of the videos on this site). Right Shoulder start down. I believe he taught both Sally Little and Jodie Mudd....a 10-20-C swing. We would need Jodie to confirm that?

DG

A TGM No-No
 

Notice to all students of The Golfing Machine:

Component #20 is the RELEASE Trigger, NOT the "downstroke trigger". Accordingly, the five Variations in 10-20 are the five procedures available for triggering the Release of the Power Package, NOT "5 ways to start the club down".

There is no such animal in The Golfing Machine as the "downstroke trigger". Stating otherwise is just plain wrong. And on this point in his Authorized Instructor training, Homer Kelley was adamant:

"Explain the terminology any way you want. But . . . don't replace it!"

Or, I might add, confuse it.

:naughty:

more confusion
 

I think we need to stop confusing the Tommy videos with the facts.

If I re-watch Tommy's Chapt. 2 & 5, maybe the facts will fade away.

Tomasello
 

Thanks to Jeff and Yoda for clearing up mistatements. I saw Tommy a number of times over the years and I appreciate and respect what he did for TGM. However I find his videos only interesting but not helpful. Lynn is so precise in his explanation and understanding of Homer Kelley's work I will cast my lot with him. Golf is an entertainment for a lifetime. The human body is very complex, I spent my entire life studying its functions. There are many things yet to be discovered about it. If the golf swing was so easy we wouldn't be on this forum discusing it. We must all realize our perceptions of what we do are just not reliable. Our brains and senses are just not trustworthy. The forearm is truly magical. When we trace the plane line all of the muscles proximal to the elbow are working in concert as well as some in the shoulder girdle and don't forget if we are pivoting the core muscles. Now if your abs are weak you use other muscles in a compensatory manner to perform the same function. If you have no buns you have to find alternative ways to move. Since I am a physcian, I tried to understand the specific muscles involved but finally gave up. I think it is much better to study the images, swing keys, golf thoughts and drills used by successful golfers. I feel many of these are universal. Our brain can take one of these thoughts(Ben Doyle called them "golf thoughts") and perform the appropriate function without much thought about the mechanics involved. MacDonald's exercises is one example of a solid pivot motion drill. It seems to me that in swinging any thought about doing anything with the forearm will not be helpful. It should be passive, soft, free of tension so that it can be thrown out. Since it is controlled by proximal muscles, that means the muscles in the upper arm need to be relaxed and allow the action to occur. They have to stay out of the way. If centrifugal force is causing the action, then the triggers have to allow it to happen rather than making it happen. We just need just enough fine motor control to accomplish tracing

DG

I can actually understand the idea of a mental trigger - where one focuses one's mind on a certain body part when starting the downswing (despite HK's statement that the listed triggers are release triggers and not downstroke triggers).

Having watched that TT video many times, this is my personal perception of what TT is doing in his right arm throw action.

As you stated, it doesn't start with a body pivot action, although the body pivots reactively in response to the right arm throw action. I think that TT throws the right forearm to start the downswing - in other words, I think that his mind is focused on the right forearm. Now, that doesn't mean that the right forearm muscles activate the downswing's right upper limb action. It means that he throws his entire "right forearm" down-and-out. The first downswing muscle motion is the activation of torso muscles that adduct the right upper arm (pull the right upper arm closer to the body) so that the right elbow approximates the right hip area. Then, fractionally later, the right triceps muscle contracts vigorously to straighten the right elbow thereby throwing the right hand (and therefore club grip and left hand) down-and-out towards the ball. During this downswing motion, the right forearm muscles do not contract in order to move the right wrist/hand/fingers. The right forearm muscles only develop increased isometric tone in response to the mental thought triggering the downswing - the mental thought of "throwing the right arm" down-and-out.

Jeff.

mrose

You wrote-: "i thought TT says lower the right shoulder starting down which then forces the left hip back to where it began. his sequence being... right hip-right forearm--right shoulder-left hip."

I personally believe that you are correct to state that TT taught that approach when he recommended a body pivot-driven swing rather than his other approach - a "right arm throw" swing. In his 5-day South Carolina TGM school lesson series, he stated that his downswing started with a movement of the right shoulder downplane, which then secondarily caused the pelvis to shift-rotate towards the target, and this lower body movement then ended up evolving into a left hip clearing action. In other words, Ben Hogan thought of starting the downswing with a pelvic shift-rotation movement that secondarily causes the right shoulder to move downplane, while TT taught the opposite approach.

Jeff.

Tom Tomasello -- Lost In Translation
 

And "Hogan's approach" is Homer Kelley's Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1 with its Pivot Delivered Power Package per 6-K-0. Also, the On Plane, Downstroke Right Shoulder Turn Lag and Cleared Right Hip of 6-B-4-C and 7-13; and, the Hip Action of 7-15 "throwing" the Right Shoulder (with its Loaded Power Package in tow) toward Impact.

For those now interested in the amplification of what I just said and in ordering The Book from The Golfing Machine, LLC http://thegolfingmachine.com/theBook/index.php, tell'em "Yoda sent me". No discount, of course, just my own continued personal satisfaction. :)

As far as Tom Tomasello's approach goes:

[Apologies in advance to Senators Lloyd Bentsen and Dan Quayle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRCWbFFRpnY&NR=1

I served with Tom Tomasello.

I knew Tom Tomasello.

Tom Tomasello was a friend of mine.

And any disciple (however devoted) -- I'm not referring to you, Jeff -- who attributes to Tom an uncocking right elbow from the Top . . . is no Tom Tomasello.

:(

Trust Me -- Tommy's Smilin'
 

Thanks for this, Andy R.

And that is why, after considerable internal debate and for the first time in cyberspace, we four years ago posted the Tomasello videos on this site. Albeit, with my own introductory caveat. http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=544.

There are three videos being referenced on this site. First, the Australia Series (done at the 1989 invitation of Peter Croker and the Australian PGA) supplied by Delaware Golf. Then, the subsequent Lee Dietrick Video Letter (supplied to me by Lee himself http://lynnblakegolf.com/cmps_index.php?page=pros. Finally, the 5-day Tommy Studio School video referenced in certain posts. That video was borrowed and sold without the owner's permission on several sites by a now banned member. Upon learning the facts, we closed our thread dealing with this video.

Our own Tomasello Series -- the LBG version intact with Bagger's editing and graphics -- is being distributed routinely on other sites and now belongs to the world.

Cool.

We do feel that LBG should be credited for its originating efforts, but . . . we also understand the motivating sensibilities, and that only reinforces our own dedication and sense of Mission.

:salut: