Right forearm takeaway
 

I am presently writing a TGM-influenced review paper for my personal golf website regarding arm movements in the golf swing, and I have been thinking a lot about the best way of teaching an optimum takeaway movement.

I favor the "right forearm takeaway" move that I learnt about here. However, there are different ways of teaching/conceptualising that movement. I noted that VJ Trolio in Yoda's Alignment Golf DVD talked about making a lawnmower move. However, I think that it predisposes to a push action elbow position, rather than ensuring the "correct" fanning motion of the right forearm.

I have therefore described a takeaway move in my review paper, which I call a "right clap hand action".

Here are two photographs of me demonstrating the right clap hand action.

This is my address position with the palms facing each other ready to clap hands.



The next photo demonstrates the right clap hand motion.



Image 1 shows the right upper limb moving in space while performing the clap hands action. Note how the right upper arm naturally moves away from the torso during the action, and note how the right forearm fans out.

Image 2 shows the back-limit of the hand clap action if I do not allow the upper and lower torso to move. In other words, I cannot get my right hand further back than that position if I keep my lower and upper torso square to the ball-target line.

Image 3/4 shows how far the right hand can go back if I allow my upper and lower torso to rotate freely (to about a 45 degrees pelvic rotation and a 80-90 degrees shoulder rotation) while performing the right hand clapping action. Note that the right hand ends up behind the right shoulder with the right forearm vertical to the ground. If a golfer has the flexibility to get to that position, then he should be in the perfect end-backswing position (for a swinger).

What do you think of my "method" of executing/teaching a takeaway action?

Is there a better way to describe/teach the right forearm takeaway?

Jeff.

Which Yoda was quick to tell.

Have you seen Annikan´s (David Orr) clip in the gallery?

Jeff . . . looking at the pictures . . . why wouldn't you just swing like that? Pivot looks good . . . you don't have that whacking looking lifting deal going. Not sure about all the verbage . . . but the pictures look good. You got any with a club in your hands while you do that?

Close but no cigar
 

Jeff,

You are on the right track.
I suggest practicing with your right palm parallel to the plane line at the top and while in motion, keep it parallel until it reaches the release point.
You may also consider moving your hands to impact fix, because hopefully your address hands are not your impact hands.

Depends on if you're teaching hitting or swinging.

12PB

My arm lifting problem is from an old swing video clip - pre-April 2008 (the starting time-point when I starting studying TGM).

I now perform this right clap hand motion which allows me to keep the clubshaft on-plane and I try to avoid any arm lifting action at the end of my backswing (which is a bad habit that gets me off-plane with a cross-the-line clubshaft).

Bagger

The right clap hand action is only the first part of my takeaway drill description. The second part involves practicing with a dowel stick - where I try to keep my right wrist level while performing the right clap hand action.



This series of photos shows that I am trying to keep the right wrist level (without any right wrist upcocking) while the right wrist bends back during the right clap hand action - note that I am looking-looking to ensure that the central end of the dowel stick (blue dotted line) remains in-line with the right forearm (red dotted line). That should hopefully help keep the clubshaft on-plane during the entire backswing action.

Augusta - do you have a different right forearm takeaway recommendation for a swinger versus a hitter? I thought that the right forearm takeaway fanning action is similar, except that a swinger allows the left forearm to pronate more thus producing the start up swivel action that gets the toe of the club up by the end of the takeaway, while a hitter simply carries the hands back during the right forearm takeaway with no left forearm pronatory-induced swivel action.

Jeff.

No 'Lawnmower Pullers' Here
 

Neither V.J. nor I teach the Right Forearm Takeaway as a 'lawnmower pull'. That move has been well-publicized over the past few years by Jim Hardy in his 'One Plane / Two Plane' books and DVDs. Jim had just presented a two-day PGA educational seminar at V.J.'s home club, Old Waverly Golf Club, in West Point, Mississippi. V.J.'s one-sentence comment on our DVD -- delivered with a big smile and demo -- was a stream-of-consciousness reference to Jim's presentation.

Now you know . . .

The rest of the story.

:salut:

<<note that I am looking-looking to ensure that the central end of the dowel stick (blue dotted line) remains in-line with the right forearm (red dotted line). >>

Jeff~ Does this result in the blue end of the dowel pointing at the plane line?

DRW

Right Palm Alignment At the Top
 

Jeff,

At the Top, your right palm is facing outward, as if you were a traffic cop saying "Stop!" As a golfer, do you think this is the proper alignment of the palm to the Inclined Plane? How will this affect your Left Wrist? How will your Clubface and Clubshaft be aligned should the palm actually achieve this alignment?

:golfcart2:

Yoda - I agree about the lawnmower drill. You very quickly interrupted VJ Trolio when he talked about the lawnmower pull action in your DVD lesson - because you appropriately didn't want him to demonstrate a push action elbow positioning movement. You wanted him to demonstrate a right forearm fanning action.

Regarding my right palm position in the right hand clap action motion - that is not what one desires in a golf backswing action. I was simply demonstrating how the right elbow/forearm should fold/fan when one performs a right clap hand action - and that biomechanical action occurs naturally/automatically at the level of the right shoulder (as external rotation of the right humerus).

The next step in the learning process is the realization that when the right wrist bends back during the right clap hand action, that the right wrist should remain level - with no upcocking action at the level of the right wrist. That should allow the right palm to become parallel to the inclined plane (turned shoulder plane) at the top of the swing (and not facing away from the target) - as you demonstrated with the two raquets in your DVD lesson. I paid very careful attention to your DVD lesson instructional insights when I viewed the DVD - I was not completely asleep when I viewed, and reviewed, your excellent DVD lesson. I recognize a good lesson when I see one! :)

DRW - when practicing with a dowel stick, as per Yoda's DVD-instruction, one should look at the central end of the dowel stick to check its level alignment relative to the right forearm - to ensure that the right wrist remains level during the right clap hand action. However, one should also be checking that the end of the dowel stick that is nearest the ground always points at the base of the inclined plane - to ensure that the clubshaft is always on-plane (except when the dowel stick is parallel to the base of the inclined plane). In that sense, a practice-lesson with a dowel stick serves two useful functions. I can readily understand why Yoda likes his dowelsss!

Jeff.

Precisely boss . .. a ROLLED right forearm at Top = clubshaft shoots across the line.

Yes. Fanning and bending like a hand clap. The RFT is a great and consistent way of taking the club away. I used to push things away with my shoulders and left arm, rocking the triangle. It caused all sorts of problems for me. RFT pulls the rest along in a reliable , consistent and perfectly aligned manner. The right arm pulls the left , the left arm pulls the left shoulder the perfect amount. Remember the distinction between upper and lower body as in the McDonald drills however. The right hip goes back and the right arm goes up.

With extensor action, a frozen right wrist and a cleared right hip the RFT alone seems to accomplish most everything for me on the backswing. Maybe Id add hinge action to the list here and alignments, flashlights etc.

The only thing Id add about your photos is that with your left arm off the club and therefor no check rein action you are obviously not employing extensor action here. Need to turn that extensor action on when both arms are attached for the full benefit of the RFT: Extension, the right elbow cocking the left wrist etc.

Its gets so simple, so easy to repeat. Like you are just taking that frozen right wrist to top.

OB

IF you stood inside Homer's plastic plane board would the right forearm lay on the plane as it goes up and and down?

MB

Id love to stand in a plane board and observe things like this. Homer said something to the affect that we would all be surprised by our findings.

Id say that now that I am hitting I seem to feel or perceive my RFFW being on plane longer. Maybe this is angled hinging, I dunno. For sure the RFFW feels more intact throughout now. To answer your question more directly Id say that it is on plane through impact or after the release swivel.

Is this right guys?

OB

Mb6606

You wrote-: "IF you stood inside Homer's plastic plane board would the right forearm lay on the plane as it goes up and and down?"

It is my understanding that the right forearm is only on plane at address/impact and as it paddlewheels into impact. During the backswing, it moves off the inclined plane and ends up perpendicular to the inclined plane at the top of the swing. The left arm flying wedge is on-plane at the top of the backswing, but the right forearm flying wedge is at a 90 degree angle to the left arm flying wedge.

Jeff.

OB left - you wrote-"Yes. Fanning and bending like a hand clap. The RFT is a great and consistent way of taking the club away. I used to push things away with my shoulders and left arm, rocking the triangle. It caused all sorts of problems for me. RFT pulls the rest along in a reliable , consistent and perfectly aligned manner."

I agree.

When I started my personal golf instructional website 2 years ago (as a pet hobby interest) I used David Leadbetter's and Jim McLeans books as a guide.

This is the photograph that I use in my backswing chapter - from one of David Leadbetter's books.



He recommended an one piece takeaway while keeping the clubhead low to the ground and he also encouraged a golfer to separate the right arm from the torso by a few inches to acquire width.

I now believe that this stiff two-arm takeaway is a mistake. I also think that this it is a mistake to try and keep the clubhead low to the ground. I agree with Yoda's advice regarding the right forearm takeaway in his DVD instruction - that the clubhead should move up-and-inside immediately as one start the right forearm takeaway. Keeping the club low to the ground is an artificial maneuver that doesn't make sense from a mechanical perspective.

I also believe that my right clap hand motion may be the "best" (easiest) way of thinking how to perform a right forearm takeaway. The only minor modification required is that one also needs to apply extensor action when performing the right clap hand maneuver - which automatically causes the width of the right clap hand action to increase to ensure that the left arm is pulled straight. Yoda demonstrates this extensor action movement very well in his DVD lesson. I love his extensor action drills. I think that he thoroughly clarifies the extensor action motion in his DVD lesson.

Jeff.

After playing this game for 38 years I am now not sure what a one piece takeaway is. I used to think I knew, but now think I had it wrong maybe.

For me it was a movement of the shoulders and arms away in one piece. Pivot to hands. No right elbow bending early. This is now about the worst thing I sometimes fall back into. This isnt to say that some may like or use it to their advantage. Probably some major winners who employed it, but for me it didnt work consistently.

I used to turn the shoulders and extend both arms , long and low, with the triangle maintained. You can even keep the right arm straight if you move the left shoulder back off the get go. You get angled hinging or maybe a dead shut clubface and no or little left wrist cock. I spent a lot of time trying to actively cock my wrists, both of them.

No longer. Now, with the shoulders non active the right arm pulls the left arm which in turn pulls the left shoulder around. This component lag, I think, allows or encourages the check rein action of the left arm to fold the right elbow which cocks the left wrist. This is "magic", eh? Or one aspect of it anyways.

Still inside the incubator on all of this but thats where I am at now. No active shoulder turning or right elbow bending or left wrist cocking. It all just sort of happens. But you need extensor action to tie it all together.

Lynn or others may come in and tell me this is not quite right. I invite that 'cause it will only make my takeaway all the better.


OB

Fog Lamps
 

Agreed . . . The Right Forearm can be On Plane only when the Right Elbow is On Plane.

The alignment you've described requires a 90 degree bend of the Right Wrist. Though this extreme is possible, it is not normal. See my last comment below.

No way (except with Zero #3 Accumulator and its theoretical Left Shoulder Plane Angle). The two Wedges describe respective Arm-and-Clubshaft alignments. Neither is On Plane at the Top. See Photos 9-3-6 and 10-6-B #2.

Agreed, but this alignment long has been misunderstood by TGM students. What it means is that the respective Wedges with their own unique alignments are brought together in a 90 degree relationship (as in palm-to-palm). It does not mean that the Right Forearm is perpendicular to the Left (at the Top or otherwise). Instead, it comes in at the angle dictated by the Right Wrist Bend (as established at Impact Fix), just as a supporting strut angles into an airplane's wing. Only a 90 degree bend -- possible, but extreme -- will produce a 90 degree relationship between the Forearms.

:)

You write-: "I used to turn the shoulders and extend both arms , long and low, with the triangle maintained."

When you state "extend both arms" I think that it correctly describes the mental picture that many golfers have in their mind when they think of the one piece takeaway. However, as Yoda accurately demonstrated in his DVD lesson, the right forearm at address must be held in a certain manner with respect to the left arm, so that the right elbow can start to fold and the right forearm can start to fan (as if performing a right clap hand action) very soon after the right forearm takeaway commences. The main purpose of the takeaway is to simply carry one's hands (and clubshaft) to the "correct" end-backswing position where the left arm flying wedge and right arm flying wedge are correctly aligned (and the entire power package assembly is correctly loaded).

Standing stiffly with extended arms leads to all sorts of incorrect backswing actions - like this frequently performed one piece takeaway action that leads to reverse pivoting.



Jeff.

Yoda - you are correct.

I was incorrect to state that the left arm flying wedge is on-plane. I should have stated that the back of the left hand is on-plane because it is the only part of the left arm that approximates the inclined plane.

Consider this composite photo of Stuart Appleby.



His clubshaft is on-plane at the top of his backswing, which means that the flat left wrist and right palm are alongside, and
parallel to the inclined plane. However, the left arm is angled slightly off-plane in the direction of the left shoulder socket.

Yoda - this issue made me think of another question, which I have now added.

If a golfer has flexible wrists, and he can bend his right wrist back to 90 degrees at the end-backswing position so that he can get his right forearm angled closer to 90 degrees relative to the clubshaft at the end-backswing position, is that a disadvantage? In other words, I can understand the right forearm flying wedge acting as a supporting strut to the left arm flying wedge at the end-backswing position, but I was wondering whether it is disadvantageous to allow the right wrist to bend back fully by the end of the backswing - thereby altering the angular relationship between the right forearm and the left arm flying wedge?

Jeff.

Jeff - I agree the clap position is a great way to learn the RFT, but only if combined with learning the startup swivel, hence why there are 2 EdZ drills! :)

The level right wrist being a huge part of understanding how the swivel and the clap blend.

Yoda - would agree that besides the turn\swivel, the clap move does show how the right arm moves?

Jeff - the other big key in my view, at least for a swingers RFT is that the elbows stay the same distance apart and point down. This helps ensure the turn is on plane during RFT, and that the loading action on PP#3 is rotated "on line". (wheel rim)

For hitter's, the key is the paddle wheel (wheel track) feel of your photos.

Wrist Tango
 

The Left Wrist is the Master Wrist, and ideally, dictates any movement (Horizontal, Perpendicular or Rotational) of the Right. The Bent Right Wrist at Impact, then, is the complement of the Flat Left Wrist, and this relationship is established no later than the Top.

Any undue Bend (Horizontal Motion) in the Right Wrist will produce a corresponding Arch in the Left. While a "small amount is advisable and useful . . . as amplification of the Clubhead Lag" (4-A-3), any exaggeration will disrupt the precision alignments of the Flying Wedges and, hence, the entire Power Package Assembly.

Ed

Jeff - the other big key in my view, at least for a swingers RFT is that the elbows stay the same distance apart and point down. This helps ensure the turn is on plane during RFT, and that the loading action on PP#3 is rotated "on line". (wheel rim)

I was wondering - if the right upper limb (via the right clap hand action and bending, but level, right wrist) keeps the clubshaft on-plane throughout the backswing, then essentially the left hand's movement in space is dictated by movement of the right hand in space. Then if the left hand's movement in space is already dictated by the right hand - and the left arm is always kept straight and the left wrist is always kept flat - then wouldn't the left arm/elbow's movement automatically occur in a certain way without having to worry about it? In other words, I am presuming that the timing of left arm/forearm clockwise rotation and left wrist upcocking would occur automatically - if the right upper limb moves correctly.

Jeff.

Yoda - you wrote-: "Any undue Bend (Horizontal Motion) in the Right Wrist will produce a corresponding Arch in the Left."

I can understand that situation existing at impact - when the right forearm is "fixedly" on-plane any excessive right wrist bend will produce an arched left wrist.

However, what about the top of the backswing? If the left wrist remains flat throughout the entire backswing, then wouldn't small variations in the degree of right wrist bend at the top of the backswing simply cause small variations in angling of the right forearm (relative to the left arm flying wedge) and small variations in the position of the right elbow. Would that be consequential in terms of swing mechanics?

Jeff.

Yes I used to do all of these things. My hair was a little longer back in the 70's though. No quite so heavy. More of a plaid to the pants, visor. Wilson Staff tour blades, white Jones carry bag, Wilson Pro Staff ball, footjoys with the kilty tongues. Maybe I should dig up a photo.


This swing gave me nice tour of the left side of every golf course.

OB

Yep, assuming that level right wrist, the flying wedges will stay in place, and the rotation will happen properly, but the rest of the machine needs to react to that move (zone 1), or you'd end up off plane.

The reason that clubface control is best kept in the left hand. (bold above).

Getting Right the Right Wrist Alignment
 

For the correct Right Wrist alignment at the Top, see my friend Mike Bender's alignment here:

http://www.pga.com/summit/2008/news/summit120708.html

In this unique hands-apart, no-club demonstration, note the right palm 'up' (to the Plane) and the complementary left palm 'down'.

Or, go here for a photo taken during my 'comeback' school almost five years ago at the PGA TOUR Academy in St. Augustine, Florida:

http://lynnblakegolf.com/cmps_index.php?page=academy

The young man on my left was (and is) one of the staff professionals. As you can see from his racquet's closed position, he didn't quite get it at first. But he soon did, and in the last couple of years has penned several authoritative articles for a major golf magazine.

That's what Alignment Golf, competent teaching and 'passing the torch' is all about.

:)

Yoda - I agree 100% with your position.

As I stated in another post, I am writing a review paper for my personal website and that composite photograph of capture images from a swing video is used to demonstrate only the first learning action - learning to execute a right clap hand motion, which only trains a golfer to understand how the right forearm and right elbow should move in the backswing (and not the right wrist). The second learning action re: the right upper limb requires learning how to bend the right wrist without allowing the right wrist to upcock - while performing the right clap hand action. That allows the right palm (and clubshaft) to remain on-plane during the backswing.

I am demonstrating that point here.



Stuart Appleby is doing a better job of demonstrating that action here.



Jeff.