Motionless right shoulder
 

My 6th Edition says that in the putt minor basic stroke that the entire body is motionless, "especially the right shoulder". I just wanted to clarify, would that mean the right shoulder does not move at all, or does this only mean that the right shoulder does not move on its own accord, only by something else moving in the stroke (ie: the right arm bending and straightening)? Thanks guys

In the Alignment Golf putting DVD, Mr. Trolio and Mr. Blake make a HUGE point that we should NEVER mix shoulder turn and PA #1. If the right arm (elbow) powers the stroke, the right shoulder stays still. Great stuff, especially for a "Hitters" feel.

Kevin

Thanks Kev
 

Great, I had a feeling this was the case. Anyone simply use ACC #1 to putt? Why does anyone feel that this is a superior procedure, and who uses punch elbow, and who uses push elbow? Thanks again!:golf:

I use #1 with the long putter, just like Yoda explains it in the DVD. I couldn't make a decent stroke with the long putter until I tried his method. I have been teaching some guys to putt using only #1 with the short putter with great results as well. Very simple...

Kevin

Re: Motionless right shoulder...
 

...does anyone remember a guy by the name of NICKLAUS ???:happy3:

You have the Alignment Golf DVD? There is some good stuff about the push basic stroke in there. A toyed with the push basic for a year or so. I love the simplicity of it, I was also experimenting with a hitting procedure for my full strokes. I struggled with distance control, especially from the 10 ft range. Then I learned to preposition the right shoulder for the desired precision destination ...namely the follow through (also the finish for putts) Yikes! If I got the shoulder gauged correctly the hole started to look a lot bigger. At the end of the day I am a swinger, so I use #4 to power my stroke, but I think the push basic stroke is scary accurate. Two things to focus on:

1. Make sure the right forearm is pointed at the plane line
2. Make sure your right shoulder allows you as much right arm as you need to power the stroke.

Push basic with the right forearm parallel to the plane line is great for swift downhill putts because of the automatic vertical hinge it produces. As I have said before I use ALL THREE hinge actions on the greens. I reserve the horizontal hinge for uber-long St. Andrews type putts, or if I have fringe to go through. The intent of selection is a big piece of the mental game in my opinion. Results are secondary...execution is primary!

another question
 

I think that my preferred procedure is to use a punch right elbow and angled hinging, just easier for me to reproduce. My question is, does the right elbow fan on the backstroke, as in a total motion stroke, or is it just a right arm punch with no conscious fanning? Once again, you are all much smarter than I am and are such a huge reason behind my recent successes on the golf course. Thank you

To Fan Or Not To Fan . . . That Is the Question
 

Glad you're experiencing your recent successes, laangels. Stay with us . . . there's more to come!

There are three Major Basic Strokes: Punch, Pitch and Push. Punch and Pitch demand Right Forearm/Elbow Fanning -- the Hands move around the Right Elbow -- and that Action begins immediately.

Only with Push is there no fanning. Instead, the Right Elbow is positioned in an 'up and out' location at Address, and the Hands are held between the Right Elbow and the Ball throughout the Stroke.

P-U-S-H.

A ponderous Action that produces very little distance in relation to the applied Thrust.

:salut:

thank you
 

Perfect, thank you Yoda this really caused me some trouble the past few days. I guess my confusion came because I had thought that because in total motion the pivot fans the hitters right forearm (using punch elbow), and because the putting stroke can allow for no pivot, then putting with a punch elbow did not require the forearm to fan. Honest mistake, back to the practice green. Thank you again and enjoy watchin the Open! Ps-big fan of Mr Gay, gotta love his game

With all due respect to many fine teachers, you can't learn this stuff in this depth ANYWHERE else!!!

Thanks Yoda,
Kevin

Take it easy!
 

I second that! Knowing the difference between pitch...punch and push has been a great help to me, especially as it relates to "fanning." It may be a very simple motion but most people do not do it! Why? They are too busy heaving a baby grand with a shoulder turn takeaway. For INSTANT simplification try the right forearm takeaway! My pops was acquainted with the great South African, Bobby Locke. He asked Mr. Locke what he thought to be the key to success in tournament play, Locke answered "Economy of motion...conserving energy." at least something to that effect. I never got that really until my stroke pattern started to shed uneccessary movement!

Great stuff Okie.

With this procedure do you trace a straight plane line (arc putting, the putter head visually covering the arc of approach, the shaft running along a string line, the putter head riding an inclined plane or putting arc) OR do you use a straight back, straight through (cover the plane line, intentional steering, acceptable when putting although a disruption of the clubs circular orbit, linear force as opposed to the angular we employ on longer shots, pool cue as opposed to baseball bat, the putter running along a straight rail or plane board which is at right angles to ground)? This is my longest sentence to date, over to the hole-ies and pole-ies section.

Although the information you are sharing is almost 50 years old it is nowhere near being common knowledge. There are famous putting instructors out there with popular books or "bibles" even that dont grasp the geometry you refer to, real though it is. Each hinge action having an associated effect on the ball.

I keep re learning the importance of putting with a selected hinge action. To ignore it is to court a mis hit, like a miscue in pool. A disruption of the balls line of compression. The selected motion or arc must stay constant.

Still working my way through 2-C. Let me know where Im wrong.

Great post.

Fanning begins immediately with Punch Elbow. This was a big revelation for me in my recent lesson with Yoda, as I had been employing a misguided Pushish Punch hybrid sort of elbow in Total Motion, too much Inline motion in Startup. Not a big Mr X move or anything. But I had a misconception about the Hitters Punch Elbow location in Total Motion having used Push Elbow in Basic Motion. Now I know better.

Yoda, do you care to comment on whether this early fanning can be pivot induced in Startup?

Oil Leak Techniques
 

[quote=O.B.Left;65390]Great stuff Okie.
OR do you use a straight back, straight through (cover the plane line, intentional steering, acceptable when putting although a disruption of the clubs circular orbit,

I steer! It feels ungainly, but it produces a very soft impact. It is not my preferred pattern, but I tend to do it under pressure anyway! I find it to be a similar situation as grip pressure. Under pressure the tendency is to hold on for dear life. So why not grip it tight to begin with, as long as your wrists can do what they are supposed to do. I think Yoda relayed a Larry Nelson ancecdote that went along those lines.

Rfata
 

This is driving me nuts at the moment. I understand in better detail how the right forearm is supposed to operate. I can describe it...I know at least 4 drills that help develop it...I can do it...SELDOM! I am so used to wheeling it with my shoulders, taking it back low and slow with my left arm etc. Years and years of executed ignorance. I am going to keep plugging away with it. I have what I have termed an "arm sway" meaning my head is pretty well stationary ( and better on the centered end) but my right arm actually straightens in startup...it is almost imperceptible (in fact the only evidence is my feel...constrasted with a well executed start-up) I am having a good time working it out...I know I am working on the right things

Okie,

I'm a bonehead rookie, not nearly as advanced in the machine as you...

I fight the exact same demons. What helps me is watching the Brian Gay video, over, and over, and over again. Not only his action, but Brian's and Mr. Yoda's words. They are real, they sink in, it's a LOOOONG process.

I keep putting together magic right forearm documents, mostly from Yoda and the others here. It becomes a tangible thing and it works. Hard work exorcizing those demons, but worth every minute you spend!

Kevin

Okie, very interesting about your dad and Bobby Locke.
Mr. Locked said his SECRET #7 was: Taking the putter
back far enough to build up the necessary potential energy
to be accumulated in the putter head for the particular putt
at hand...

An Afternoon with Mr. Locke
 

Mr. locke was a grand gentleman, that called everybody "Master!" I started playing golf in 1986. I was slated to play a round with Mr. Locke in the Fall of 1987 (Southern Hem.), unfortunately he passed away quite suddenly that summer (Feb. I think it was) I did get one of his flat white caps and three Slazenger golf balls (which I promptly sacrificed to the golfing gods!) Most prized however was a 5 minute personal exchange and a 2 minute putting lesson. My Dad told me at the time to "...brrrand everrrry worrrrd he says into yourrr mind, laddie (pops is a displaced Glaswegian). Unfortunately my memory of that lesson is corrupted by my serial reading of Bobby's book! I do remember the licking sound that he made when striking putts. His putter (a copy of his original) was very heavy (but then Okie was a mere squirt) He told me to address it on the toe so not to cut across it, and to a golfer hitting putts nearby he admonished me not to play "squash" balls. I had not idea what he was talking about. Today I think he was referencing his preference for a harder...noisier ball. My father recalls the exchange verbatim (endowed with a freakish memory for minutia) At the time everyone's golfing hero was Norman, Couples etc. mine was Arthur D'Arcy Locke! I watched him play about 27 holes (back nine X 3) He walked as though in slow motion. His book is still one of my favorites. I regret never asking him to sign it. I need to scan some of the pics. There are some good examples of #3 PP, sequenced release, as well as flying wedges. He had a pretty narrow endless belt going as well! Oh, yes the short conversation dealt with the most important club in the bag was the 15th club, the one that wears the hat!

Do you think Locke's insistence that the putt be addressed towards the toe for putts is an innate understanding of 2-J-1?

Thanks for sharing that Okie. A friend of mine played with Locke at the Wanderers club in South Africa. Many stories.

Here is how I deal with a similar habit of straightening the right elbow in start up:
-my old swing saw a pronounced shoulder turn takeaway which enabled an extension of both arms going back. A disruption of the clubhead orbit resulting.
-with the left shoulder held still as a drill only, the right side must shorten as the power package moves away from the ball.
- you dont want to freeze up your shoulder turn but you must fight the tendency to over turn the left shoulder actively.
-The right shoulder governs the left shoulders motion.
-My feel is a turn of the right shoulder away that allows it and right arm bending to pull the left arm which pulls the left shoulder around. Weird but thats the notion.
-The right arm will then shorten immediately in startup.

Bobby Locke book
 

Okie, what is the name of the book by Mr. Locke?
Do you know if it is on the market now?

Thanks, Donn

Hotter than a well digger's .....!
 

Bobby Locke on Golf

There is a signed copy for sale on Amazon for $400 plus!

Thanks for the tip OB. I recently found that if i have insufficient waist bend at start up I tend to fight a shoulder turn takeaway. Standing too straight to the ball promotes a very flat arm swing i.e. no hint of RFA pick-up as they follow the shoulders in and around. My frustration with this is compounded by the current heat wave!

Bargain Book Shop
 

Or . . . you can buy an unsigned copy for as low as $12.00 here: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...gol f&x=0&y=0

But watch those shipping costs. Many copies of these books will come from the U.K. or South Africa, and for U.S. buyers, the shipping costs could double your price.

:salut:

Bobby Locke's book
 

Lynn, Thank you very much for the information. You sure
have a lot of knowledge about a lot of things.
Donn

Stockton's Right Elbow Action / Push Basic Stroke
 

Back at'cha, Donn. You've had at least three careers (on the ground and in the air!) and have the technical manuals you've written to prove it!

:laughing9

Meanwhile, back at the Motionless Right Shoulder portion of this thread . . .

Get a video of Dave Stockton putting. He was (and is) one of the best, and his Stroke is a pure Arm Stroke, i.e., Flat Left Wrist and Push Basic Right Elbow Action. All with the Motionless Right Shoulder providing Pivot stability for the driving Right Arm.

Most of today's pros use a Shoulder Stroke, i.e., they freeze the Right Elbow and Hands; then, they 'rock' the Shoulders to get the Club back and through.

Not Dave.

And with 24 PGA TOUR and Champions Tour victories, five majors, and more than $11 million in official money to his credit, he's worth listening to. If only as an alternative to 'THE' way.

:salut:

I just want to add my two cents.

Lately I've had great putting rounds with Shoulder Stroke Putting. But, I've also had great moments with the Arm Stroke. If I could choose, I would choose the Arm Stroke.

I don't know why, but the Ball Rolls different with the Arm Stroke. I think that it takes less Break. I know that sounds crazy but I really think it does. Also, with the Arm Stroke, it's Center Cup more than the Shoulder Stroke.

Tiger, with his right arm only drill, is ingraining a hitters stroke (not a shoulder frame stroke). Is that correct?

Tiger's Template
 

Agreed.

That said, his Stroke is totally different once he adds the Left Hand to the Grip. Now, instead of pushing off the Right Shoulder with an extending Right Elbow, he freezes the Right Elbow and thrusts via the Right Shoulder Turn.

So . . .

What is the benefit of all his one-arm practice?

Right Forearm Tracing (Clubshaft Control) with the Lag Pressure Point (Clubhead Control). Only the Flat Left Wrist -- visual or geometric -- needs to be added (Clubface Control).

Once the aforementioned have been harnessed, the rest is a piece of cake.

So Tiger freezes his right shoulder when he does the right hand only drill with his putts. Interesting.

Lynn, in your opinion would he be better off (is this possible?) doing his right arm only drill with a frozen elbow and a thrusting right shoulder?

Thanks