Interpret Gary Player's advice through the prism of TGM
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88...om=PL&index=62

Sure many people have seen this - any thoughts?

Is he just restaing Hogan's advice re. bent/cupped left wrist at end...

Just look at Gary's face at 1:51...WOW...meet that face in matchplay and I'm already down by about 9 holes!!

Got to love Gary's passion!

Thanks GBD

I had only seen a shorter clip of that interview. Very interesting, this is something I am dealing with in my swing too, I think. That is about where the similarity between my golf and Tigers ends. Im getting just a little arched and slightly laid off at top. Its small but its there. Its an unwanted horizontal motion in the left wrist which disturbs the plane of the Left Hand Wrist Cock. For me, it makes left wrist cocking a little harder and promotes a sweep release.

Arched at impact is a nice bit of insurance against throwaway. But the Left Wrist cock and uncock is vertical only motion, like hammering, no horizontal motion. Hogan clearly stated in Five Lessons, that the left wrist begins to supinate near impact. Hogan, actually had a little Horizontal motion himself but the other way around, getting a little cupped at Top, a wide open clubface for hook prevention purposes.

Tigers clubface would be more closed at Top if not for his extremely weak left hand grip. Yoda could fix all this for Tiger over a coffee in the Grill Room, Im thinking.

Do you think Hanks parallel planes or right wrist cock and uncock theory could be a contributing factor for Tiger?

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=124379053 0

Uncocking the Left Wrist is a Vertical or On-Plane Motion. It is an On-Plane Motion for Swingers using Standard Wrist Action. Hogans Supination Illustration is simpley the On-Plane Uncocking and Swiveling on an Elbow Plane with a 10-2-A Grip and Strong #3 Accumulator (to match the earlier Release of the Elbow Plane). This combination will produce a Bowed Left Wrist when the Clubshaft is Forward Leaning. 10-2-B will produce a Flat Left Wrist when the Clubshaft is Forward Leaning.

Warning: Without what Looks like a Cupped Left Wrist at the Top of the Swing, The Clubhead will not uncock and cause the Swivel Automatically. It is the Uncocking Motion of the Cupped Looking Left Wrist, that moves from Cupped Looking to Flat during the Uncocking to Swivel around the Sweetspot Plane. The Swivel is a continuation of the Uncocking Motion (Automatic). Without a Cupped Looking Left Wrist at the Top of the Swing, no Swivel after Uncocking begins. The More Cup, The More Swivel. 10-2-A will continue Uncocking/Swivel to an Arched Left Wrist, and 10-2-B will Uncock/Swivel to a Flat Left Wrist (with a Forward leaing Clubshaft). The On-Plane Uncocking Cupped Left Wrist moves to Flat,,,that is the Swivel,,Uncock, then Swivel. Automatically, Immediately, Assuredly. You can't Swivel unless you Start the On-Plane Uncocking Process first.

:laughing9 That's the easy part............The Hard part is having a LEVEL Left Wrist at Impact...because if it's uncocked beyond level, then the Clubface is Closed at Ball Separation. DO NOT start uncocking until the Hands reach the Line of Sight to the Ball when using a Turned Shoulder Plane...otherwise you'll hook, draw, pull the ball into the woods....

Your Left Wrist continues to Uncock after impact and the Swiveling motion causes the Left Palm to Roll to the Plane, which allows the Left Elbow to Bend and meld into a Finish Swivel.

Like Homer Said: "You can Swing in your sleep". It's all Automatic. I'd like to have a word with him about that.

Look harder at the Illustration.

The Analysis. I won't go there.

Tiger needs to listen - that right forearm position is going to cause losses until he fixes it and Gary shows exactly what the problem is (at the 2:07 mark)

5 minutes with Lynn/Ted and he wins multiple events in a row again

OK . . . Player has some good points IMO. Not sure about that whole supination deal . . . . If you had that down the line sequence of both of them and the face on matching you could really see the differences.

1. Some of that elbow away from the body is the plane Eldrick is on compared to Hogan. . . . so that's a piece of it . . . but if you look at Hogan he ain't "lifty" at all. He stays pretty much close to the elbow plane the whole time.

2. Tiger will shift the plane angle dynamically thru the ball (handle raises up) . . . Face vector and path vector get all jacked up. he can hit it anywhere as a result of the disruption in the #3 angle . . . I think anyhow.

3. If you look at the foot work no question that Hogan's footwork is MUCH better . . . the reason is his hip action. If you had the face on of these to moves you'd see that Hogan's hips are going forward LONGER than Eldrick. If the hips spin then the right foot is going to pop up. Tiger's iron swing is much more solid . . . more Hoganish. That driver swing has MUCHO speed and lots of moving parts for the amount of speed. If you watch where club exits Hogan's body I think it would probably be much different than Tiger. Not sure but would probably be much lower.

4. They both do that archy deal Hogan just does it later.

5. The thing to learn here . . . HOGAN HAD AN AMAZING AND EFFICIENT GOLF SWING FOR THE PLANE ANGLE HE WAS ON. Watch how well his hand path "matches up." Beautiful . . . footwork . . . beautiful. Not many swings stack up . . . even the best player to ever lace 'em up can match Mr. Hogan's move . . . not even close.

Overall I think Player's analysis is pretty dang good.

I have to admit that for a Layman, G. Players analysis is pretty darn good.

Do you think that Tiger is aiming for Hogan plane through impact but his flat left wrist (WITH HIS CURRENT TIGER GRIP) from top/transition does not allow an on plane motion, late release of acc 2/3 and elbow plane?

I think that only someone like Yoda knows the answer. And he probably won't say even if you torture him. But he may point to the problem. I bet his answer would be 1-L; somewhere. :laughing9

I couldn't say what his Driver Problem is. It's beyond me how a guy can hit a two iron from 235 yard to a tucked pin yet can't hit a fairway with the Driver. But, even his mid irons are off.

I think that Bucket makes a strong case about the #3 and off plane Right Forearm all over the place.

A contributing factor could be the ridiculously diffused sweetspot on that hellish driver, but I would think that he would have had that tweaked out of his handmade driver a long time ago but not out of the Production model. However, he could probably play with a Hockey Stick.

One thing is certain. Tiger ran into a problem that he hasn't solved yet.

Holy cow! All this time I have been trying to cure a cupped left wrist at the top.
A.J. Bonar would really be smiling about this.

Keep trying the cure. The Flat Left Wrist is the Ideal Alignment throughout the Swing.

Gary makes good points but I see the following:
Tiger arches the wrist at impact - causing the low point to move.
Hogan is on the elbow plane on the downswing.
Tiger is on the TSP - it only appears to be on the elbow plane because he has such a significant head bob/drop.
Hogans right forearm is on plane at parallel on the downswing. Tiger's above the plane.

In essence Tiger has not mastered any of the 3 imperatives!! Can you imagine how good he would be if he did??

Down And Out!
 

Dang cyber furlough I came to this shindig a bit late! I did not read every post in this thread but I think it highlights perhaps the most misunderstood topic in TGM...the flat left wrist. If you take your impact fix alignment then cock the left wrist straight up it is seldom visually flat, depending on grip type. I believe that is why Homer said to practice the wrist and hand motions with both an open hand AND a closed fist. I think a lot of people get a little shut (open face) at the top then collapse the left wrist in an attempt to square it usually sending it left. For me the key in accomplishing the #1 alignment was the magic of the right forearm...right forearm fanning in particular. One of my favorite Yoda drills is using the badminton raquets, the challenge is to get the face of the raquet flat to the inclined plane. Most (including yours truly) never rotate the right forearm enough. I believe this is one of the numbers for the tumbler that will unlock your golfing potential. GP knows what he is talking about. Uncocking a shut left wrist will hit the mother of all push-slices...until it quacks left! Try hammering a nail with an arched (shut) left wrist! Without an aligned left wrist there can be very little DOWN AND OUT going on

Daryl, anybody, everybody. Especially people who have built plane boards.

I've been away for a bit and just read this great post. I play my best with a slight cup and my worst with an arch at TOP. The arch inhibits my left wrist cock, promotes a sweep release and sends the ball to the right which leads to a subconscious over swivel through impact as a compensation, ouch. When I get it cupped golf seems easy again but dang its harder than it sounds to correct. I can train with flash lights etc to fix it but Im wondering if at the root of my problem lies a theoretical issue?

So please help me out. Where am I going wrong here?

The plane of the left wrist cock and uncock is the plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. A pure vertical hammering like motion when the left arm and club is extended out in front of you. In the actual golf swing this is an on plane motion, the club cocking up and down the inclined plane when the club is about half way back or down, say. The Left Arm Throw for Swingers or Right Arm Throw for Hitters in Release. The Left arm is not on plane but above it at Address, Top, Impact.

How the heck does the club shaft cock up and down the inclined plane while maintaining the LAFW when the left arm itself is not on the inclined plane?

Thanks
Ob

Don't want to sound "cocky"
 

Posted by Lynn a few years back...

The palm of the Left Hand does not lie in the plane of the Left Arm when the Left Wrist is Flat (upper Left Arm in line with the back of the Left Hand). Because of the heel of the Hand, it is sloped away from it (counterclockwise) and appears 'more vertical' at the Top (and In Line with the Plane of the Turned Right Shoulder). Thus, the Wrist can Cock on Plane without the Left Arm being On Plane.

Maybe what you are considering the Vertical Wristcock Motion of a Flat Left Wrist is really the Vertical Wristcock of an Arched Left Wrist (which puts the palm in line with the lower part of the Left Forearm and therefore not On Plane with the Right Shoulder).
__________________
Yoda

No. Only for a Hitter is Cocking and Uncocking a Vertical Plane Hammer motion and Only because his Wrist is Vertical. (Hitters can take full advantage and Swing on the Turned shoulder plane with a Vertical Wrist(see below). For a Swinger, the Left Wrist is Slightly Bent so that Cocking and Uncocking the Left Wrist is On-Plane when using the Elbow Plane while the Left Arm is Not On-Plane. That's one reason why Swingers Load the Secondary Lever at the Top of the Swing and Hitters Load the Primary Lever. NOTE: The Slightly Bent Left Wrist Loads the Swivel Action of the #3 Accumulator to give an AUTOMATIC SEQUENCE RELEASE on the Elbow Plane. Because the Left Wrist is Slightly Bent, it will snap Flat during Uncocking which Forces the Roll to continue through Impact so that you don't need to think about it much. Use the Same Amount of Wrist Bend at Standard Address which has Less Bend for a Driver than a Wedge when the Address Procedure uses the Inherent Lean Angle built into the Club. It's not much Bend. This Way, from Address To Release, the Left Wrist Bend stays the Same but is different for each club. Easy. Easy still with a Torso Take-Away.

However, don't confuse a Bent Left Wrist because of the Elbow Plane with a Bent Left Wrist on a Turned Shoulder Plane. The First is still Standard Wrist Action and the Second is Double Wrist Action.

Concerning a Turned Shoulder Plane. It is my opinion, that a Bent Left Wrist Release is very different than a Flat Left Wrist Release. I've posted elsewhere about this. I don't think that the Bent Left Wrist provides the same transfer and added Power that Rolling with a Flat Left Wrist provides (Double Wrist Action). I consider the Release with a Bent Left Wrist to be a Simultaneous Release (Double Wrist Action) compared to a Flat Left Wrist which offers a Full and True Sequenced Release. I think that the Flat Left Wrist Roll is a superior procedure because of its inherent mechanical advantage.

You May have a Flat Left Wrist at the Top of the Swing. Just Prepare to Roll. It has its advantages. It's Highly Recommended. You get to use the Turned Shoulder Plane. On the Turned Shoulder Planes, during the Backstroke and Downstroke to Release, the Club, with a Flat Left Wrist, is On-Plane on the Inclined Plane even when the Left Arm is NOT. Interesting. The Back of the Bent Right Wrist actually lays on the Plane with the Clubshaft Up and Down the Plane while the Back of the Left Wrist is Flat and in-line with the Left Arm. It uses the Right Forearm Flying Wedge (Which rides perpendicular to the Inclined Plane) to travel the Plane from Top to Bottom of the Swing. Then Swingers, Roll (Swivel) the Right Arm Flying Wedge into Impact During Release. And Besides, any procedure for a Sequence Release produces a Vertical Left Wrist for the Hinge Action. Its Hinge action that should take control through the Impact interval to Both Arms Straight. Anytime you bend the Left Wrist you need to Swivel to the Hinge and you do risk swiveling through Impact more than with a Flat Left Wrist. But Swiveling to the Hinge with a Bent Left Wrist does Prevent Clubhead Throwaway when it produces a Slightly Arched Wrist at Ball Separation.

You can also use a NON-AUTOMATIC RELEASE. At anytime during the Downswing, before Release, simply Arch your Left Wrist Slightly. Then, you're already Rolled going into Release. It doesn't move the Club Off Plane because Arching the Wrist Slightly is only a Rotation around the Shaft (Tom Lehman). This is really the Way for Swingers to go on Short Shot Procedures (VJ Trolio) because it doesn't need much thinking and you don't need as long a swing as the Full Sequence.


True, but at Release, a swinger uses a Wrist Throw to Uncock the Left Wrist. A Hand or Right Arm Throw is from the Top of the Swing to Launch the Power Package Down-Plane.

Turned Shoulder Plane, Extensor Action and the Magic of the Right Forearm. Welcome to TGM. :notworthy Using these procedures, you will always have a Flat Left Wrist and you will always swing on the Turned Shoulder Plane and your Clubshaft will ride on the Face of the Inclined Plane and you will always Cock and Uncock On-Plane. Thus, you will be blessed with many years of golf, low scores and a wife that understands. You will truly be among the few.

The Question you should ask is "Does the Left Arm and Clubshaft with a Flat Left Wrist need to be in-line Longitudinally to be in-line"? (no) or "Can the Left Arm Wedge be Turned to the Plane"? (yes). So, if the Clubshaft and Left Arm with a Flat Left Wrist form a 90 degree angle, it can be turned to the Plane (Rotated around the Arm) so that the Shaft is on the Inclined Plane but not the left Arm? Yes, on the Turned Shoulder Plane.

If you know Extensor Action but especially the the Magic of the Right Forearm when combined Forces the Hands onto the Turned Shoulder Plane, this would all be clear to you.


BTW. It took me TEN YEARS to understand this. Get a Club, grip it with a bent left wrist. Put the shaft on-plane. Flatten the Left Wrist. Is the Shaft Still on Plane?

Get a Club, grip it with a bent left wrist. Put the shaft on-plane. Flatten the Left Wrist. Is the Shaft Still on Plane?



Daryl,

When you say on plane are you referencing the plane of the vertical left wrist cock?

This is a fine point . . . particularly with folks that have D-type grips or that set up with Standard Address . .. The Address Plane ain't always the SWING PLANE. This where some approximation of Fix is important (some dude's just know this instinctively . . . like guys that make $2 million a year and can't explain how the face works . . . "uh the ball starts where the path goes" . . . sorry charlie). But them cats have Impact instincts . . . they may shift it around but once the get on the plane the are coming down on . . . they stay on it.

Yes. But with a D type or strong left hand grip, going to flat would be a loss of the Left Arm Flying Wedge, no. And assuming you are doing this at address would this not be an unnatural plane for the Left Hand to then Cock along? Now instead of cocking vertically along the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge or the Inclined Plane even, you're cocking along the plane of the left wrist which is arched to flat.

Im trying to get this and appreciate your help. Here is my question from a different perspective. Say we are in Homers garage playing around with his plane board. At Top, my left palm lays on the inclined Plane, aligned to the Turned Shoulder Plane say. My left arm is above plane, not on it. The Plane runs through the right shoulder and down to the Target Line. From Top, I move slightly to End. Logic tells me that the left palm should stay on the plane and that any additional Left Wrist cocking should be on plane as well, the club shaft riding the plane too. But for the plane of the Left Wrist cock to remain along the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge the wrist cock must actually be in line with the left arm and since the left arm is not on plane it is therefore an off plane cocking. Is the plane of the left wrist cock inline with the LAFW or isnt it?

Thanks
ob

Holy Halibut!
 

If that is not the case... you can find me rocking myself calmer in a non descript corner somewhere! It is not on THE plane, but on its own plane i.e. the plane of the left wrist cock, or a "flat" left wrist. I may not even understand the issue at hand...Daryl has a tendency of reducing me to thumb-sucking! :confused1

All of my comments refer to Swinging.

If your Left Palm is resting On the Plane at the Top then your Left Wrist is Bent. The Back of your Right Hand should be Resting on the Plane.

True

No. The Plane is what the Clubshaft says it is. If you draw a Straight Line between your Hands and the Ball, that may not be the Plane that the Clubshaft is Riding on. But, lets assume a perfect Turned Shoulder Plane and Perfect Club Alignments and an On-Plane Right Shoulder, Then the answer is, Yes.

Do you think you found a Dilemma?

You'll agree that the Right Shoulder is On-Plane During Release.
The Left and Right Shoulders are both On-Plane at one location during the Swing: this location is where release should begin. Then, the Left Arm and Flat Left Wrist and Clubshaft are On-Plane at that moment. Uncocking Begins On-Plane, but Rolling keeps it On-Plane.

At what object does the Right Forearm and #3 PP Point to at Release?

The Power Package has the same alignments at the Top of the Swing as at Release.

Yes, left wrist is bent as it should be given most every grip type except the extremely weak left hand grip. As per Yodas Alignment Golf preview of the "hammer drill", the on plane, vertical, hammer like cock and uncock of the left wrist sees the left wrist bend when cocking, in accordance with the grip type employed.

Back of the right hand resting on the plane? I thought the hands sandwiched the plane. Left palm on top, right palm below, supporting, like a waiters tray but the tray is inclined not parallel to the ground like maybe he is running to our table with my sandwich and beer.




I have recently discovered a Diamana but have no intention of seeking out Dilemmas. I think the book is free of conflicting alignments. Just looking at my own cocking along the plane of the left arm at Top and researching, thinking, trying to figure this all out. I play way better with a bend at TOP which allows the cock to be on plane, like my left wrist............had to sneak that in there D, sorry.

I assumed we're always talking about the 10-2-B Grip unless otherwise noted. At least that's the assumption in the Book.

Well, I must say that's news to me. I thought I was just going by the Book.

Just so I have it straight, then:

1. The amount of Left Wrist Bend is determined by Plane Angle or is it the Amount of Wrist Cock or Both?
2. So, if I don't Cock my Wrists, depending on Grip, my wrist may still be bent?
3. Does the Left wrist bend and Cock Simultaneously with 10-2-B?
4. Does the Left Wrist Unbend and Uncock Simultaneously at Release?
5. And Lastly, He says that in the Alignment Video?

I wonder, then, anyone having a Flat Left Wrist at the Top of the Swing, must have a Compensation.


I don't want to be argumentative but: Dark Green and Red by Daryl. I highlighted the text so it could be easily found.


The Alignments in the Quote below are made Possible because the Back of the Left Hand and the Back of the Right Hand are not Parallel to each other.

HK is saying that the Back of the Left Hand (With a Flat Left Wrist) is on the Left Arm Wedge Plane and the Back of the Right Hand is on the Inclined Plane.

This was posted in an interesting thread on the Bent Right Wrist.

Ok just reviewed the Alignment Golf DVD, took a while, man its good. I must retract the above statement. Lynn doesnt comment on the degree of bend at Top in clip I was thinking about. Dang where did I get that. Is Freddies left wrist more bent at Top than it was at Address? Now Im wondering too.

In regard to 6-B-3-O-1, I take it to mean that the plane of the RFFW is the plane of the right wrist bend, at right angles to the plane of the LAFW. So not the inclined plane, all the time anyways, at address and impact yes but elsewhere no.

So with your arms extended in front of you, parallel to the ground, the LAFW plane is vertical to the ground and the plane of the RAFW is horizontal (as in yodas table photo). When dropped down onto the inclined plane the plane of the RAFW will be on (or part) of the inclined plane but only until startup begins. As the left wrist turns to plane so does the plane of the RAFW turn under the inclined plane.

I think you're soon going to have a breakthrough moment.

When dropped down to the Inclined plane, in your above statement, if you were to turn your right wrist 90 degrees clockwise so that the palm of your right hand is against the bottom side of the Plane with fingers pointed at the plane line, then put your entire right forearm, elbow, upper arm and wrist in a cast, keeping your right hand on the plane, use your right shoulder to rotate the right forearm flying wedge to the top of the swing and your fingers are now pointing up-plane, lower them back down using your right shoulder joint until your fingers are again pointing to the plane line. That is the motion of the right forearm wedge during the Backstroke and Downstroke until release.

Hold on a second there fella, Turn and Roll of the RFFW aside, that is what Ive been saying all along, right and left palms, holding the plane at Top like a sandwich.

I agree. The fingers of the left hand would touch the plane but not the Palm. The Palm would be a 3/8" away. The stuff in the sandwich would slide out.