hogan on the Ed Sullivan Show
 

Here is the link. I love the drill he is doing near the end. It sure reminds me of the Wild Bill Melhourne grass whip drill. Hogan did take lessons from Melhourne I believe. I remember reading somewhere that Hogan did this drill for 20 minutes or so in the locker room before going out to the range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr-b7...eature=related

Pivot controlled
 

That's a cool clip of Mr. Hogan...showing a sense of humor and an interesting drill...would this classify his swing as pivot controlled?

Thanks, cool link
 

Thank you for the link!

A great video for Pivot Controlled Hands.

Great question. Some may say yes,Pivot to Hands, I dont want to name them because Daryl is really a great guy but I beg to differ. The body providing rotation early, moving the club the first wee bit, fanning the right arm even if you look at it closely, does not preclude the brain from sensing via the pressure points in the hands where the club is and directing things accordingly. Remember this is a drill only, you could start the right arm pickup early at the same time even if you wanted. Some may like the feeling of a more radial pivot only takeaway, some may not. But DONT FREEZE YOUR PIVOT IN STARTUP, thinking it to be a Hands to Pivot takeaway. Bad things will happen. Roundhousing for instance. See 12-3-0. Pt #17 is Right Forearm Takeaway but way back at pt #13 is Clear Right Hip.

This Hogan drill is straight out of Melhourne or McDonald's teaching of the 1920's or perhaps even earlier. The body is a rotor and the arms are just blades. Homer would add that the brain directs via the pressure points in the hands. The hands travel their own path UP as opposed to the IN provided from the pivot. That is the key distinction to my mind. Divergent paths in the Back, UP, IN of three dimensional takeaway. It's not unusual we do it all time in everyday life.

Here is a link to a video of Bobby Shave demonstrating the Melhourne Grass Whip exercise.

http://www.golfwithmehlhorn.com/video1.htm

You will also see some similarities to the way in which Ben Doyle teaches hitting a tire with the pivot, "no adding or double dribble" via the hands or arms. Here is a link from an esteemed golf website frequented by golf's congnazenti. (sp?)

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...-1-Part-1.html


Here is a McDonald drill or two for y'all. The beginning of Hogans drill reminds me of Exercise 11. When he gets the club swinging a bit it reminds me of Exercises 5 and 8.

Drewit or others may know of other similar type exercises from Vardon etc. The great thing is it works, like really works. Lynn teaches this and other drills as part of his Motion training. Ive seen him teach people to walk a line of balls "brushing" in both directions, constant swinging, thwacking off balls with sweet compressions. Results that cant be had as quickly using normal methods. Give up control to gain control etc. VJ Sing says Mr Blake can be seen working his way through the tall grass Melhourne style with a sand wedge. Davis Love has a grass whip and loves it. Mr Hogan wrote extensively on the benefits of his drill as well.

This is not position golf but motion golf. The ball seems to know the difference.
Homers geometry and machine concepts still apply of course.

Why does it work? Im thinking its anti steering therapy. We strike the ball like Homer would strike his dandelions. We trick the brain and learn a secret in the process.



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You got this posted whilst I was writing mine...........knew it!

Bobby Shave demonstrating the Melhourne Grass Whip exercise: Circle Path Delivery Pivot.
Active Hands and Arms.
Ground Forces: (Left Foot -Right Foot - Left Foot), (Left Foot -Right Foot - Left Foot), (Left Foot -Right Foot - Left Foot)

Ben Doyle: Straight Line Delivery Path Pivot.
Hands are clamps, arms are strings.
Ground Forces: (Left Ball, Right Heel, Left Heel, Right Ball),(Left Ball, Right Heel, Left Heel, Right Ball), (Left Ball, Right Heel, Left Heel, Right Ball), (Left Ball, Right Heel, Left Heel, Right Ball)

"Ground Forces" ? You've been hanging with the biomechanics guys again, havent you?

Agreed on Shave, arms and hands are active. Not so with Hogan. Who knows about Wild Bills actual version? But Ill take his prize student, Ben Hogans version of the Melhourne drill. In regard to circle path, Im thinking that when you reverse your swing, axis tilt gets left behind in favour of mirror image motions. The point being that it isnt a golf motion but a grass cutting motion from yester year. But it wouldnt be hard to incorporate a golf like axis tilt, hip action, if you wanted to. I can personally alternate hitting and swinging, or high,low whatever while walking the line hitting balls. D you gotta try this, I love it.

As for Ben, he cant stand on one leg anymore, would be my note there and only the left arm is a string,not both of em. Have you no structure, no EA? I like Bens action though, standard wrist action and then all pivot into the bag.

McDonald has it going on. The arms swing independent of the shoulders, ground forces like Doyle, no active hands etc etc. He is even talking directly to you Daryl in the last paragraphs of Exercise 11. Yes YOU.

ok. except for extensor action.

I've been playing the best golf in my life this year. But, if I pull with my arms or hit with may hands, with just an ounce, I lose the sound of compression and I can tell from comparative ball flights that something is different.

Hands aim, pivot does the work. I remind myself every day so that I never forget.

Thats pretty much where Im at these days too. Lagging takeaway, float loading. Am I thrusting? I dunno. Just really trying to sustain the same pressure in my #3 as long as I can , which requires a steady and constant rate of acceleration. Which means I start off slow so I can maintain the rate. Right hand karate chop maybe?

But D if you can do this "Pivot does the work" thing going down and call it Hands to Pivot why cant you subscribe to a similar thing going back? I do. As long as the Hands direct which can be seen in an on plane clubshaft , it is Hands to Pivot aint it?

I think if you're tracing the Plane line and the Pivot is responding to that, then the #3 PP maintains its relationship to the plane line. Hands Controlled Pivot.

I had this very conversation with Yoda today. The hips can move first in start up and still maintain hands controlled pivot. I had misunderstood it completely. Fun to learn from the Great One!

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Here's another Great One.

From "Homers Notes" (Vikram). I can't speak for the notes. They were transcribed by Chuck from recorded audio which included information for the 7th Edition revisions. I didn't record them and I don't know the context.

Hip Motion is not work. I suppose that if your Hip Turn doesn't disturb the Hands relationship with the Plane Line.

Pivot controlled hands occurs when the #3 pressure point senses and maintains a relationship to the Pivoting Body. The Hands go along for the ride.

Daryl,

I wonder if a little right hip bump at startup is what Mr. Kelley meant by "leading the backstroke with hip action?" I was surprised by this train of thought, but Yoda convinced me 100%

Perhaps it was because we were in teaching mode and my problem was my right hip being locked up on the backstroke making it very difficult to keep the shaft on plane?

Kevin

I think he was saying that Hip Action moves the Shoulders, which will move the Arms and Hands. So, starting with the Hips and ending with the Hands, is an actual pivot controlled hands. I don't think a Hip Bump is Hip Action. I understand more clearly now. I'm sure you can have a lot more motion than what you're doing and the Hands are still controlling the work of the pivot before it gets the other way around. You aren't allowing the Pivot to take control of the Hands (pull them off track).

Better pay attention to this drill . . . . Mr. Hogan's club didn't deviate from the plane angle very much thru the ball . . . . there are some BIG pieces here . . . . Mr. Hogan controlled the 3 functions better than anyone . . . . His selected plane angle was different than some prescribe but . . . these were his components to achieve it. Consider the implications of what is being said here . . . consider the #3 accumulator motion and its angle for Mr. Hogan's plane . . . consider the description of the Elbow Plane in the earlier editions (paraphrasing . . . the Rightforearm moves at right angles to the axis) . . . consider the implications of a larger #3 angle on the amount of face rotation and clubhead travel for a given amount of roll . . . consider the Arc of Approach delivery path vs. straight line . . . . Consider what the arms do if the Arc of Approach gets WIDER . . . is it really pivot controlled hands?

Not pivot controlled hands . . . more like Hogan controlled Plane, Hogan controlled head, Hogan controlled face, Hogan controlled ball, Hogan controlled GAME.

This is just for you Bucket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSAAvhukTiE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daylife. com%2Ftopic%2FBen_Hogan&feature=player_embedded

Thanks Daryl!

On a side note, I will post more in it's own thread when I have time, but what an incredible experience hosting a workshop with YODA. Unbelievable teacher, he makes it so simple. Incredibly great guy, just a wonderful gentleman who has so much enthusiasm that it is infectious!

Kevin

I like this. Going down everyone would agree, Hands to Pivot, although the Pivot powers the power package. Going back is where peoples opinions differ.

If the pivot provides some power in addition to or prior to RFT even in startup but the #3 is still tracing, your statement still holds true to my thinking. Hands to Pivot. In essence if you are Tracing , Hands to Pivot.

A Lagging Takeaway in particular, I find, needs the pivots help to power the initial move away from the ball. A pure Carry Back motion wouldnt need it as much. The Physics of getting the pivot going early is not a requisite maybe, for some, depends on your motion. Im thinking the more Hogan like you are the more you need to do it. The more Rope Handle, the more you swing from the feet maybe. But everyone needs to pre clear the right hip for geometric reasons. see 12-3-0

I personally subscribe to the right hip clearing actually moving the clubhead a touch prior to the RFT assuming a lightly soled, hung set of Flying Wedges with a level left wrist. The perfect start to a Lagging Takeaway. You need the no tension, homeostatic, hanging set of wrists though. Like Hogans two pistols.

Dang I was so happy Hitting and then I started watching the Hogan in Mexico video every night .................. his Rope Handle motion is so beguiling.

http://media.photobucket.com/player....fs=1&os=1&ap=1

Bagger should give you another 1000 posts for this.

Never seen that video, thanks.

Funny. My hips move first but I'm not trying to move them. I'm just trying to fan my right forearm and the hips take off. Whenever I try to restrict this hip movement it's a disaster so I just live with it for now. Good to hear Yoda is ok with this. I thought I was doing something wrong.

Check the book on clearing the Right Hip . . . . forget about that resistance mess . . . . if you don't get the right hip cleared in both directions. . . your hands gotta go around the hip and typically get drug out overplane . . . . check out any swing that was any good from the 50's on back . . . you see some MAJOR hip turn and some standard knee action . . . . we're all programmed to what we like to look at . . . blends nicely with what Hogan had to say here . . .

Another wonderful post Bucket!

Kevin

Love that photo of Sam Snead. He was so flexible he could kick the top of a door jam in his 70's but here he is with his right hip pulled way back...........and he won PGA events in 4 different decades. So much for X Factor, resistance and the flexibility it requires. If he didnt do it nobody should. Dont freeze your pivot in startup, even on short Acquired Motion shots. Basic Motion or putting is a different story.

thats a hell of a pair of strides Lee Buck has on!

MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well this is really great news. I'm glad I don't have to think about this right hip thing anymore. I just thought it was odd when I saw my swing on video that the right hip was the first thing to move. I am playing really well so I didn't want to address anything major in my motion so this is a big relieve. Thanks bucket and o.b.