zero shift on the elbow plane
 

lately ive been struggling with being too flat for the TSP, i start on the elbow plane and then shift up but not quite steep enough. my clubs are all very flat and im relatively short it feels more comfortable and simpler to me to start on the elbow plane and stay on the elbow plane, i shift back to the elbow plane at impact anyways so would the flatter plane really change anything as far as spin and angled hinge action, i know that the flatter the plane the more angled hinge becomes like horizontal hinge. is there any attributes of a zero shift elbow plane swing that are undesirable or require special attention?

The Elbow Plane is very "flat", is there a physical reason why you cant raise your Right Arm/Hand? A right arm injury or something?

A flatter than normal Plane Angle will see Angled Hinging Approach Horizontal as you mention but not in a clubface rotation manner or in feel. Its more like the clubface is staying perpendicular to the Plane but given the shallower angle with less layback and more clubface closing during the impact interval. But still accompanied by the "no roll" feel in the left wrist of Angled Hinging. There will be less associated Down and a more Out to the Clubheads Orbit on these angles. So your divots will be shallower as you sort of scalp the grass with a shallow Angle Of Attack. As there is more Out, ball positions back of Low Point will see an increased angle to the Angle of Approach if your hitting, more Out. Ball played back of low point will be pulled left unless you cover this Angle of Approach with more Out. Sand play will put you in Bob Vokey's "Slider" category. Ball position alters your direction more than your elevation.

With your hands lower than your TSP angle an On Plane turn of the Shoulders in Startdown would see your Arms and your Hands pulled down inside the plane.

I'd imagine your backswing is somewhat restricted and you tend to stop at Top which is great and has no implications to the force you can create. I'd also guess you are very rotational and fight coming inside the Plane on the Backswing. Need to concentrate on Tracing to separate the motions of the Shoulder Turn vis a vis the Right Forearm Takeaway in this regard maybe. Im guessing here though and dont wish to make any generalizations or anything.

I'd also venture that you play fantastic flop shots with the blade wide open, are good out of the sand and lets see play a .......draw no fade. You're young, dashing and women swoon when you walk in a room.

How am I doing?

All the best
Kreskin

I had a little soreness at the very top of my left arm where it attaches to the shoulder. I'm not sure why, but I backed off on my extensor action a tad and it seems to have helped. Dont know if I was doing something wrong, letting a little tension creep in to the shoulder/arm connection or something.

I like to Hit from End too but am wondering if it is a good fit with an Angle of Approach or whether it is best stay on the Arc given that the #3 pp is on the knuckle in Startdown. Not sure, its a question I have for Luke or Yoda. From Top with Drive Loading and the #3pp on the first joint of the right index finger the Angle of Approach works really nicely. But I love that feeling of Float Loading and have trouble stopping at Top. I dunno? Still searching for my pattern.

Is there any way your soreness could be from a quick rotational swingers turn in Startdown, your low under the TSP angle left arm getting stretched to the max? The solution to this would be a Slow Startdown from Top with an active Drive or thrust of #1 against the #3 pp in the first joint at Release. Classic drive loading, Hitting, Angle of Approach procedure. Just an idea. Maybe send some tape to Luke for a proper diagnosis.

If you're like me the soreness in that particular place is a bit of a worry. What ever causes it must be removed from your swing lest you get a chronic golf related injury. Dont want to suffer like Ken Venturi did or anything.

Practically all Tour Players use the Elbow Plane from Release through Impact and to Finish but at the Top of the backstroke they were on a steeper plane.

I realize that, to clarify, my question is how many tour players DO NOT SHIFT to steeper planes and remain on the elbow plane from startup to finish, i would guess very few if any but was curious if there was a player out there to study from, who employs a zero shift elbow plane swing. from my first post, my question is are impact conditions the same when employing a double shifting elbow plane-any steeper plane as employing a zero shift elbow plane swing, I'm thinking impact conditions with regards to spin and hinge action would be the same because with both swings impact occurs on the elbow plane.

You're correct. To answer your first question, many of them stay on the elbow plane throughout the swing for putting, chipping and pitch shots.

it's interesting then because homer states in 10-6-A that "it is the flattest normal plane that will still allow the right forearm to be on plane during impact this produces a very flat angle of attack with reduced backspin and should be avoided for short shots unless it is also part of your full stroke pattern." he's suggesting that ideal impact conditions for the short game would be on a steeper plane, a player that i learned the short game from taught me to play all short game shots with the heel of the club never touching the ground, the club resting on the toe, a much steeper plane for the short game then for other shots, one to ensure the heel of the club did not interfere and two to increase height and point the face more straight as you will find a flatly soled perpendicular leading edge wedge shot will hit shots consistently to the left with most modern wedges, however i have found the dave pelz wedges to always aim dead straight when the leading edge is perpendicular to the target line and flatly soled.

Are they really on the elbow plane or appearing to be so because they drop their heads/torso (Tiger) on the downswing?

Whether it's an Elbow Plane or Turned Shoulder Plane, we're always talking about the Clubshaft angle. The following Image of Ben Hogan indicates that the Clubshaft angle at Impact points to the location on his side where his right elbow would touch.





So, regardless bobbing or swaying, it's the clubshaft that defines the plane.

Hmmm. I'd say the player who establishes his Impact Alignments at Fix (his RFFW on the Shaft Plane) makes the adjustments required that you refer to above, bobs, waist bend, knee bend, skull line etc prior to Startup. Players who address the ball with their Right Elbows above the Shaft Plane must make these adjustments during the swing and suffer from the inconsistencies that result.

But to answer your question directly, Id say they are only on an Elbow Plane if their Elbow is on the Shaft Plane. Most pros do bob to achieve this impact alignment having addressed the ball with their right elbow above the Shaft Plane, Lie Angle.

I am always very confused about the plane and zero shifting.

If I address with the right forearm on plane with the shaft, with bent elbow, then just bend and fan the right elbow up and then just pushing down with #1 pressure point, am I zero shift with turned shoulder plan (since is on plane at address)? or am I at the elbow plane? Appreciate your help.

Elbow Plane. If the Right Forearm is On the Swing Plane at Release and In-Line with the Clubshaft, then you are swinging on the Elbow Plane.

All Swinging should have an On-Plane Forearm at Impact (Right Forearm is On the Swing Plane at Impact). At Release, the Right Forearm should at least be On Plane, at 90 degrees, to the Left Arm Wedge; Flying Wedge geometry.

Thanks, Daryl, I am hitting, am I zero shift as right forarm on plane at address and just bring it back and push it down. Does zero shift must be for Turned Shoulder Plane?

If you bring it back and up and then take the hands straight to the plane line without going up or down on the way, with the left arm wedge intact, then you're using a Zero Shift on the downswing. Zero Shift means no plane shift.

clubshaft and proof in pictures
 

To be more precise....

Although they are great pictures, they are worthless for proving anything about the Plane. The camera is not "On Plane". So, the pictures are poor views of the geometry. Only with a camera's eye "On Plane" can lines or conclusions be drawn.

Homer - TGM:

2-F
(6th Edition)
Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot – the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a “Clubshaft” Plane and a “Sweet Spot,” or “Swing”, Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted, “Plane Angle” and “Plane Line” always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. Except during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and – from, either Plane because the Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot – not vice versa.
(7th Edition)
Except for Impact, the Clubshaft is an acceptable Visual Equivalent for both Planes - especially if the Clubface is Turned "On Plane".

So, the travel of the "Sweet Spot" defines the Plane. The line drawn on the Clubshaft at Address does not define the Plane.

Zero Shift, as I understand it, is the "Sweet Spot" traveling on a single Plane.

I found them on the internet with the lines already drawn. So much for trusting Golf Instructors to draw lines. I didn't want to embarrass anyone by mentioning names. I guess I'll just have to draw them myself from now on.

Does that mean we can't discuss the Swing Plane anymore or does that just limit our visual props to illustrations and/or approved photographs?

Yodasluke has the point correct about the camera needing to be 'on the plane' otherwise you have a distortion to deal with. Using no planed photos you just have to realise that appearances can be deceptive.

Follow the sweet spots travel and life gets easier to grasp in terms of plane shifts.

In your opinion, how far off-plane are the above photos?

The above photos were offered in an earlier post to explain why the "Elbow Plane" is called the "Elbow Plane". Would you approve the photo's within that context?

It's easy to mistake what I want to say with what I said. And its easy to mistake what you think I said with what I wanted to say. :) That wasn't well said but I'm sure you get what I mean. :)

Separated by thousands of miles, discussing a very complex subject, without the artistic talent to draw what one thinks, confined by a limited vocabulary, and limited mental faculty for 3 dimensional visualization, it's a wonder we can understand each other at all. :) And that's just you! :)

I, have even less. A little breathing room please.

Know what you mean :) I cannot even draw my own thumb.

The photos taken are from way to the right of the real plane so hard to use. It makes BH look like he is pulling way left too (sound a familiar argument??!!) with a bent plane line.

Context is king of course. A good pic is as handy as a perfect one to get the general concept fired up. A perfect one leaves no ambiguity. Guess Homer worked that out over the years doing the book:)

camera height
 

I think the camera may be as far as a couple of feet above Plane.

I hope I can courteously disagree with both of these statements.

I hope so as well.