Does CF left unbridled naturally produce an Over Roll?
 

I say No. Hear me out and tell me what you think.

There has been a suggestion in some circles that Swinging and CF will cause a natural over roll of the Hands and clubface through the shot. That therefore Swinging requires constant monitoring and practice to deal with this over roll tendency.

I believe that while it is common for a good golfer to display this over roll, or over swivel tendency, its not a display of the effects of unbridled CF but rather an interruption to CF. That the forces that cause the over Roll are created by the golfer not by CF.

Some have even mistakenly described this over Roll as representing Horizontal Hinging, which it clearly is not. An over Roll is way past Horizontal. Hit the search function if you need clarification but HH is a holding of the Left Wrist perpendicular to the Horizontal Basic Plane, the ground say.

Worse still to my mind is the oft prescribed fix by way of a "hold off" to Release, which is Steering, Golfs first Snare according to Homer. Im thinking its better to correct this over roll by learning a Hinge Action but try a properly aligned Horizontal in addition to Angled and dont hold anything off.

Below is a photo of Homer swinging a balsa wood club head around on a length of string. In full display amongst other things is unbridled CF and the natural Horizontal Hinging it produces.

Also per 2-G BASIC PLANES AND HINGING "........And always with a Flat Left Wrist vertical to its asscociated Basic Plane. "Over Roll" or "Under Roll" of the Left Wrist--NOT VERTICAL--puts the Swingle out of line with the Handle (Sketch 2-K) as much as does any other form of Clubhead Throwaway."

The "any other form" is interesting isnt it. Does this imply that you can have a flat left wrist and still Throwaway?

Merry Christmas to all Swingers , sorry if Ive been hard on you guys of late. Daryl made me do it.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126081617 6

would that support Lag Erickson's view that a FLW is like a vapour trail from a jet plane ie that the FLW is a byproduct and cannot be forced?

Hey Styles.

Id agree with that statement assuming proper grip pressure in the left hand etc but dont know how you got that from what I was talking about.

Any over roll associated with a CF pattern is due to an improper grip/alignments and not CF per se.

from this part:

This may or not be related to this discussion...

what is the opinion of the left wrist rolling counter clockwise through the impact, and that this rolling is critical for the swinger to maintain a flat left wrist and clubhead throwaway?

When I feel like I try to roll the hands its forced and some kind of AJ Bonar type move.

OB Said: There has been a suggestion in some circles that Swinging and CF will cause a natural over roll of the Hands and clubface through the shot. That therefore Swinging requires constant monitoring and practice to deal with this over roll tendency.

Quote:

Some players even intentionally execute Impact as exclusively a Swivel, making Clubface alignments extremely fleeting and erratic. Study 3-F-7-B and 7-20.

OB Said: I believe that while it is common for a good golfer to display this over roll, or over swivel tendency, its not a display of the effects of unbridled CF but rather an interruption to CF. That the forces that cause the over Roll are created by the golfer not by CF.

OB Said: Some have even mistakenly described this over Roll as representing Horizontal Hinging, which it clearly does not. An over Roll is way past Horizontal. Hit the search function if you need clarification but HH is a holding of the Left Wrist perpendicular to the Horizontal Basic Plane, the ground say.

You answered your own question.

OB Said: Worse still to my mind is the oft prescribed fix by way of a "hold off" to Release, which is Steering, Golfs first Snare according to Homer. Correct this over roll by learning a Hinge Action but try a properly aligned Horizontal in addition to Angled and dont hold anything off.

Hold Off? One needs to Learn to Hold the Wrist Vertical to its associated Basic Plane through Impact to at least Both Arms Straight.

Also per 2-G BASIC PLANES AND HINGING "........And always with a Flat Left Wrist vertical to its asscociated Basic Plane. "Over Roll" or "Under Roll" of the Left Wrist--NOT VERTICAL--puts the Swingle out of line with the Handle (Sketch 2-K) as much as does any other form of Clubhead Throwaway."

You answered your question again.


GP Styles Said: would that support Lag Erickson's view that a FLW is like a vapour trail from a jet plane ie that the FLW is a byproduct and cannot be forced?

That's gibberish.


gmbtempe Said:
what is the opinion of the left wrist rolling counter clockwise through the impact,

That's a "Kind" of Swivel, it's not a Hinge.

and that this rolling is critical for the swinger to maintain a flat left wrist and clubhead throwaway?

No. Swingers can use Vertical Hinge too, which is a Clockwise rotation, and still maintain a Flat Left Wrist.

Im trying to be polite but you could insert "swinging left" for "hold off", assuming the swinging left is the version that is off plane in follow through. Some are some arent Ive found. The Hands do go In, or Left after all post Low Point when on Homers Plane. Im talking about the clubhead orbit interupting off plane version.


D why are you yelling at me? You of all people. This is your christmas present for crying out loud.

You're always level and professional. I'm not yelling, ever. What am I doing that's making me sound that way. I'll stop immediately.

I'm lost, as usual. What does "swinging left" mean? What's wrong with swinging "On Plane".

No worries mate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with swinging on plane. Guess Ill have to get you some socks or something.

Ob

Daryl can you elaborate on "Thats gibberish"?

The Lag-meister claims that the Flat Left Wrist cannot be forced. That's "inventing a bad argument" only to disprove it. Who ever said that the Flat Left Wrist needed to be Forced?

Furthermore, he claims that the Flat Left Wrist is a byproduct. Does he tell you that it's a by-product of his Pivot Drive pulling the Left Arm and Clubshaft into a straight line? With a Force so strong as to Flatten the Left Wrist? I hardly would call that a "Vapor Trail". Would you?

What's the best way to avoid generating CF?.....Pulling in a straight line. That's what his Pivot-leg-thrust-ground-force is designed to do. Convenient argument. In other words.."Step on it and you won't be strong enough to bend the left wrist". Oh ya, that's smart. What would you do for a soft pitch shot?

If we learn the correct procedure, we don't need any mumbo-jumbo witch doctor remedies. :laughing9

The Flat Left Wrist is easy. You have it at start-up, Backstroke, Top, Start Down, Release....now learn not to screw it up during Impact.

See..."Finish Swivel Video" in the Free Video section.

This is a direct quote of John's.

I'm not trying to start arguments, I think we are grown up enough to discuss this without resorting to childish taunts of 'gibberish'. If the physics are there, then they are there. If not, then they are not.

As I said I am not trying to provoke a fight and I hope that John doesn't mind me quoting him here, in truth it could cost me a friendship.

I would like to hear from some of the other machine heads on this subject as well, especially our great green one if he is not too busy.

Gibberish is a grown-up word.

GP, please start this in a new thread in "The Lab". Otherwise it's thread-jacking. The Lab might be a good place to discuss new methods that aren't TGM related. Perhaps this is a question for your close friend John? It is afterall his method and he is a self-proclaimed TGM Expert.

This is just so wrong, so wrong. :naughty:

Daryl, as one of the most prominent thread jackers on the site, I find your request to move humerous and no more.

I'm sure a debate with you would be interesting but you demonstrate time and time again a lack of patience and whats more a lack of grace when talking to or about people whose opinions differ from your own.

I can do without such rudeness.

Good day sir :salut:

What did I say that was so wrong? Did I hurt your feelings?

....Hmm? Does that mean that you'd rather Jack this thread than start one of your own? Why?

Don't you think that the Lab is a good place to discuss non-TGM related theories? Do you not think his Theory is up to Peer Scrutiny?

I have spoken with lag on a few occasions about how the wrist becomes aligned as Flat when the pivot is driving hard.

He has awesome ideas on this and the 'self proclaimed' tgm expert is only from the fact the Mr doyle taught him for many years.

Daryl, I was also following the thread on lag's site where you 2 didn't see eye to eye. I respected both sides of that debate.

I also have reviewed everything in the forums (all three forums including Lag's, Iseekgolf and Sevam1) and I'm familiar with the procedure. I don't doubt the Physics or geometry of the procedure but I do caution about its efficacy and its reliance on changing significant components of the golf swing to apply the procedure and then having to adopt a different stroke pattern for approach and chip shots. Additionally, Lag bends the Left Wrist and he needs "A Way" to Flatten it before Impact. Whether it's done his way or any one of a dozen other ways, TGM says that if one acquires the FLW during Start-up you'll have it for Impact. How simple is that?

One of the most significant contributions of the Golfing Machine is being able to use the same stroke pattern throughout the game by reducing or zero-ing out components rather than adopting 5 different swings to play one round of Golf. It's not the "Long Ball" syndrome; more muscle equals distance. TGM means more Pressure equals more power.

You're too kind in calling that "schizophrenic clash" a debate. It was about the "Stationary head" as I recall. Or was it about debunking TGM and it's adherents? :laughing9

I requested that GPStyles start a new thread in the "Lab". That way, we can ask him questions and he can explain the Physics and Procedures. But, I can understand why he doesn't feel up to the task. Obviously, he fears supporting a point of view in which he lacks sufficient knowledge, otherwise he wouldn't need to resort to personal attacks on me (naturally unsubstantiated) for lack of a better cause.

Does Centrifugal Force by itself cause an over roll? What do you guys think?

Ob

Oh? Back to the subject of the Thread?

CF pulls the sweetspot of the Clubhead in line with the Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Golf Club. CF can only pull these into a straight line. CF doesn't do "over-correction", only "straight".

The Clubface will only square up for Impact if it's designed/manufactured square to the LCG. Variable weighted Heads (with adjustable screws) allow you to change the Clubface geometry by changing the LCG via changing the Clubhead Sweetspot or you can purchase Clubs with Open or Closed Faces.

Over Roll is not caused by a "Hinge". Over Roll can be caused by poorly executing a Swivel or substituting Swivel for a Hinge. Therefore, Over Roll is caused by poorly or over-executed Hand Manipulation.

I find that highly offensive Daryl.

Which part? "lacks sufficient knowledge" or your "need to resort to personal attacks on me"?

We are all here because we "lack sufficient knowledge", so it must be the part about you "resorting to personal attacks on me". If you find that offensive, then stop doing it.

Fellas, in the words of Ginger Spice, from the movie "Spice World". (yes I have daughters).

"Guys, guys, guys.........Have you not heard of the word COMPROMIZATION?"

Daryl, the only personal attacks on these pages are coming from you.

I don't understand why you are being so hostile to me.

If I am wrong about this, please someone point out where I have personally attacked Daryl.

You accuse me of lacking sufficient knowledge Daryl, I never claimed I had the knowledge in the first place, I simply asked a question. I then aske dyou to elaborate and the post in a non hostile way - that was like waving a red flag at a bull.

Seriously Daryl, your attitude towards me is making it difficult to make this site one of my daily visits.

:crybaby:

How can you say that the only personal attacks are coming from me? Seriously, are you drunk? Yesterday you personally attacked me by saying:

If you don't think that's an affront, then explain yourself.

You asked for an opinion on Johns FLW statement. I responded by offering reasonable arguments to prove that his statement was gibberish? Then, you accused me of using the word gibberish as a "Taunt". Really? after reading my arguments you think I used the word as a "Taunt"? It is the only word I know that describes his statement. It remains "gibberish".

OK...

Daryl, it was a crazy and heated debate but I understand the majority of what you have to say and I have learned alot from JE. Its nice to hear what a player does, what a player has tried, and his personal feels to support it. You have to remember that JE learned from Doyle WAY back and as we know, homer's ideals changed slightly from edition to edition. What he learned then as a player may be just a little different from today. Either way, he is very knowledgeable - as are you.

I do agree that CF will pull in a straight line and that at some point, if left 'unbridled', the clubhead may pass the hands and the forearms would roll over, however, with proper hinge action, this can be reduced or avoided.

In my own mind, the only way I can see the over roll occuring is if the pivot cannot support the accumulator dump into the ball. Then we would see this happen.

This isn't a headed debate. It's far from debate and it looks less harmless than it is.

He is not very knowledgeable. I'm only somewhat knowledgeable. Give John E. credit for a great career and effort and ability.

"Roll" is imparted by the rotating torso and is not an actual roll of the hands. The Sweetspot of the Clubhead does not rotate around the shaft, but the shaft rotates around the sweetspot. "Rhythm" is Holding both Lever Assemblies to the same basic R.P.M. throughout the Stroke while overtaking all other Components at a steady, even rate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is a great example of what I see as a scary problem.

What is Accumulator Dump? This is the kind of Gibberish that anyone knowledgeable of TGM would cringe when hearing. See the following quote.

Where does HK use the word "DUMP". "Dump" is johns misrepresentation of the concept of accumulator release. His professional Playing Career has lent him credibility so when he says these things, people believe him but are getting the wrong understanding of TGM.

The phrase "Accumulator Dump" is an invention. It's a phantom argument. There is a fine line here between "Misrepresentation" and "Lack of Knowledge".

Daryl, just curious. Why did you run from Erickson's site deleing all your posts while closing the door?

Erickson is in fact very knowledgeable. His knowledge does not limit itself within a book - he has lived the book on tour and found pure swinging wanting in his case. He has studied great ball strikers and found an alternative hitting pattern that probably does not fit your TGM version. That does not mean he is not knowledgeable - on the contrary, he has something extra to offer.

This is getting out of hand guys. Please.

"Gentlemen, Generals please, there'll be no fighting in the War Room".

The idea that CF produces an over roll is not Lag's originally anyways . Havent we all thought that at one point or another? Its as old as golf itself, isnt it? For ages golfers as they improved developed hooks via a over roll of the hands and clubface. Didnt Hogan think that a Hook was a natural result of a good golf swing or something to that effect. I take my internet name from a similar predicament I had for a decade or so. It sure seemed natural to me back then, when I was a junior golfer.

My question was an ernest one. No disrespect intended at all. There is much I admire about Lag's writing. We learn by discussing. That is my sole objective here.

I believe you could have woken Hogan up in the middle of the night and he could still stripe one. Im open to answers of all kinds. Maybe Horizontal Hinging in itself is a constraint to CF? Although Homers balsa wood clubhead on a string demonstration would suggest otherwise.

Hitting is a TGM Term. It means that Right Arm Thrust, not CF, Uncocks the Left Wrist. There are no other versions to my knowledge, however there are thousands of Stroke Pattern Variations.

So, is "Accumulator Dumping" a TGM Term or is he making it up as he goes along?

No one ran. You're making more of it that it was. I told John that if all he wanted to do was brow beat TGM and it's adherents then I wouldn't be a part of the discussion. I had to ask if he's purposely misrepresenting TGM for another motive or is he un-knowledgeable about TGM?

I'm not the one opening a can of worms here. I'm not interested in discussing Johns views nor do I care. Styles wants to ask everyone's opinions on Johns theory, not me. Then he gets bent out of shape if the response is negative? Have you read anything by Styles supporting Johns views? I asked him to post in the "Lab" but he refuses. That's where "new frontiers" type questions belong. No?

not drunk Daryl though thank you for suggesting to everyone I am, wish I culd come up with something as witty :sarcasm:

I come to this site with questions, not answers, I have never portrayed myself as knowing all the answers.

There are many people on this site I respect, you sir, are not one of them.

Styles, I'll still treat you with respect. No one has all of the answers. But I hope that after some amount of time that you have some of the answers.

"What you load is what you dump". Ben Doyle - GSED, the 1st, no less.

Accumulating is loading and the subsequent releasing of the accumulated forces is dumping. Not exact TGM terminology but a very effective description of what actually takes place, nevertheless.

I suspect that you knew that already, of course, but it just did not suit your purpose to say so.

I have tried very hard to stay out of this thread but your attitude to those who do not feast at your table is something you might like to address.

You have much to offer, and we are all grateful for that, but the energy expended in alienating those you perceive to be in opposition would be far better spent on their conversion.

Semantics
 

Both GPStyles and Daryl are both valuable contributors to this forum and I enjoy reading their posts. When you are both searching for the same goal, there is no reason to be at odds with each other.

Somtimes we use (instructors) different terminology. For example, I once gave a golf clinic to a group of bankers and borrowed some terminology from A.I. Billy McKinney to explain Power Accumulators: Earn It (Accumulation,, Loading), Save It (Storage, Delivery), and then Spend It (Release). It is all about your presentation...something both of you can "bank" on.

Did Homer Kelley use that Term? Actually, no, I didn't know that Ben Doyle said that. I have his tapes, DVD's, I've had 2 lessons with Ben Doyle and I've talked to him on the Phone many times and he has never said to me that Release is "Dumping" and I wouldn't describe my Release as "Dumping". But I haven't a clue what that means even if Ben Doyle coined the term unless I asked him to explain it. I would describe my Release as a "Sequentially Flowing Throw". But I haven't adopted my description of "feel" as a TGM Term. Does that make sense to you? As difficult as it is, I try not to assume I understand a concept without extensive collaboration, sometimes over years. Even then, applying it, is a completely different learning experience. I didn't go to TGM school.

What do you mean "Feast at your Table"? Are you saying that in addition to thousands of available stroke patterns, that TGM concepts themselves are open for a variety of equally valid interpretations?

Burner, it's odd that Ben Doyle said that. During my first lesson, Ben broke a tee in half and pushed it into the ground on a rearward leaning angle so that only a very tiny tip of the tee remained above ground. He told me to to use a chipping stroke and drive the tee into the ground without touching a single blade of grass. I said: "impossible". He took the club out of my hand, then, using a Pitching length Swing he not only drove the tee underground but did so without touching a single blade of grass as he continued with an almost full finish. Whoa. He gave the club back to me, and with a chipping stroke I hit every blade of grass around the tee without ever touching the tee. He told me I should learn to do that with a full swing.

Is the skill level and precision Impact needed for that test, best described by "Dumping"?

Lets proceed with dignity and mutual respect, everyone deserves that after all (except Bucket and Mike O who came over last weekend and put lipstick and fishnets on my dog Buster, who's walking real weird too these days, but I digress).

Lynn took that photo of Homer whirling that balsa wood clubhead around from the second AI class I think. I believe it had a screw in its sweetspot, COG. Lynn would know what the deal was with that demonstration. Below is Alex Sloan's take on it from the first AI class.

So does unbridled CF produce an over roll? Slice's answer was great, thanks for that. We missed a chance to talk about it too cause you guys where doing other things sadly but ........What do you think?



http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126102699 2

I would like to chime in a bit here . . . CF according Mr. Kelley does produce Horizontal Hinging . . . however according to Mr. Kelley the amount of force required to override the cf acting clubFACE is minimal . . . hence the "manipulated hands swinger." The amount of force required to override cf on the clubhead/shaft . . . different story.

So from a practical stand point if you chose to swing then how can you keep your hinging from turning into an unbridled swivel as upposed to an unpredictable flash of the face? ANSWER . . . keep the massive rotor GOING . . . and keep its mass CENTERED and far enough down the plane line so you don't run out of right arm. So if you "hangback" with the right shoulder via a perverted axis tilt, not enough weight left, or your right shoulder ain't moving down out and forward the proper amounts . . . the dawg runing on the chain gets choked out . . . DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR LEFT SHOULDER IS?

Big differences . . .

Awesome post Bucket.

"Keep the Rotor going". Nice, we've all felt the consequences of not doing that. I think this maybe ties in with what Slice said too. Is this a maintenance of CF then? If Homer had of slowed the RPM's of twirling string would the face have rolled over?

Do you mind taking us through the photos, what do you see there? Is Adam Scotts COG or Axis of Rotation (in a VJ Trolio sense) not far enough left to your mind? In the comparison of Hogan and Tiger , is it Hogans hips being turned more that you are looking at? The right foot drag move of his that Knudson adopted plays a big part in that I believe although its relates to ones flexibility and is therefor a custom fit kind of deal. Hogans drag was smallish , Knusdon's especially as he got older was longer as he preached getting to Finish in a super comfortable way with your "center" (cog, I guess) pointing right at the target, exactly. But I digress.

Come again
 

RC,

Whatta ya saying now? Is Adam Scott's pivot stalling?