? hItting up with the driver and right arm thrust ...
 

Hi all.

I hit on the upswing with the driver. I have a question pertaining to this with regards to the right arm thrust ....

Is the right elbow fully straightened at the low point before the ball -- before the upswing, or should the right elbow only be fully straightened after hitting the ball?

Thanks. :)

Great question. The answer was a real revelation to me and changed the way I perceived Address, Impact (which are not the same) and helped me to understand Homer's reason for identifying the Both Arms Straight or Follow Through position.

The Thrust of the Right Arm (passive for the swinger or active for the hitter) is crossline (in the direction of the right arm towards the plane line). Since the Right arm is not fully straight until the Both Arms Straight position.........the Thrust will continue , Down and OUt towards the plane line until that position. IE ideally the Thrust continues to be applied Down and OUt , past impact, past Low Point up to and including Follow Through , Both Arms Straight, despite the fact the Clubhead and the Hands for that matter are traveling Up and IN post Low Point.

So if you do want to hit the ball post low point, you must position the ball Up and In as well. In other words tee it a little higher and a little inside the Plane Line/Base Line to match the orbit the clubhead is Traveling.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126591979 6

Old Dog, Same Tricks???
 

Am I the only one left who doesn't like the idea of trying to hit up? :)
:golfcart:
Kevin

Same here, I try to think level.

Not that I don't believe the science behind it just that I am not optimizing it correctly enough to justify the loss in accuracy.

OB,

Are you using the Hogan pic to demonstrate that although well past impact Hogan still has a 'lil right arm to go? No hitting up on it here, folks! Kev, you should add the upswing driver to your bag of tricks. Especially if you "need" a few extra yards and are playing to a 100 yard wide fairway. Personally I think hitting everything on the down is like taking out insurance. Cannot be overinsured (or at least that is what Bucket told me)

If you are moving your arms inside and left like Hogan does, and you maintain the wedges it seems to me that the right arm has to stay bent well through impact, I would also imagine this requires a angled hinge.

I like that Okie, Thank You! :salut:

Kevin

Okie, yes for sure. Insure everything, especially your goat herd if Bucket is your agent. Id say Hogan in that photo was almost done, but still in the process of Thrusting his Right Arm Down and Out a little, despite the fact he is past low point. Not saying he is actively Thrusting or anything, before some of you guys get your shorts in a knot. Thrusting is present in all good swings I'd say, be it Active or Passive, Swinging or Hitting, in that the Right Arm does straighten eventually.

My only objection is to the words "cut it" of "cut it left". Assuming the Hands travel the Inclined Plane, they will come Up and In post low point on their own. In being Left. Anyone who manipulates a pulling of their Hands to the left is courting bending the plane line to the left and at the same time misdirecting the down and out Thrust. Just keep the Hands On Plane and you're good. Hogan's hands to my mind are on plane and have therefore moved Up and In (left if you will), but his Thrust is towards the plane line. Look at how his right arm and clubshaft point at the plane line. Similarly, in a vertical plane, if in an attempt to "hit up on it" you actually changed the orbit of your hands and clubhead to actually hit up more or earlier or something , that would disrupt the circular orbit as well. Now you could adjust the plane all together to accomplish more Up or Left ..........the swinging left guys love the elbow plane for instance. Thats Plane compliant, with implications, such as the #3 Accumulator and the Roll power, less Down more OUt etc.

So Id say if you want to hit up on the ball for ballistic reasons or whatever, change the ball position and Thrust down and out as per usual. Simply put, "put a good swing on it", the clubhead will come up and in on its own and make contact.

Didnt want to get into the Swinging Left thing really. Why do I get my self in these messes? My main point is that in regard to Right Arm Thrust as per the original question.......there is just way more Down and Out than most people realize there is to be had! So fill your boots with it! Passively or Actively.

PS For all you book literate types out there:

1-L-10 "The Lever Assembly must be driven through Impact by an On Plane force (moving toward the Plane Line)." Brackets by Homer, bold by me.

1-L-15 "The Club starts up-and-in after "Low Point" but the thrust continues Down Plane during the Follow-Through."

1-F RIGHT ARM OR LEFT "The "mystery" of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood (6-B-1). Whether its participation is active or passive is difficult to detect visually because in either case the Left Arm is ALWAYS SWINGING and the Right Forearm is ALWAYS DRIVING. ......"

Nope........................!

I may need a good cut man!
 

who mentioned cutting left?:confused1 Personally, "cutting left" is the feel of the sweetspot tracing the plane line as you continue back up the plane in the follow through/finish. The "right field" deal is the feel of tracing the plane line when you are moving down plane to low point. Anybody that has made a low bench type thing to ride the shaft along will be struck by how "left" the tracing sweetspot seems to take you. It is an inside out impact, not an inside out stroke. An inside out stroke disconnects the power package from the pivot in my opinion, setting up a stalled pivot scenario:naughty: The cutting left crowd just lack Homer's more precise terminology and its geometric precision. Looking at Hogan can you dispute that it appears as though the clubhead is cutting left? I may be stirring the same hornets nest OB, but I do not see an active thrust of the right arm. I have to admit that it is near impossible to tell! If anything Hogan's right arm is resisting CF. Just my limited understanding as collateral here. I am now going to duck for cover...INCOMING! :salut:

The head, the tail, the whole darn thing
 

Hah. Nice post. Although I dont know what you mean by "resisting CF". I agree with you Hogans still slightly bent right arm in that picture suggests to me that he was not "actively" extending it there. But the Right Arm must extend all the same, no?

As to whether I see Hogan's clubhead moving left in that photo........... yes, but mainly I see I guy staying on the Elbow Plane with an Angled Hinge Action and its associated travel. The flatter more horizontal the Plane Angle the more Left there will be post Low Point........and the more Right pre Low Point, eh? Less Down more Out in our speak. So ya, I see the clubhead, the clubshaft, the Handle ............... I know you do too. Ever build a plane board, Okie? Id love to climb into one of those things. Homer said it would be a revelation to anyone who did.

I thought gmbtempe was maybe alluding to "swinging left". I have no problem with that stuff, not that I know that much about it. But like "hitting up" I believe it is ideally done in an on plane manner. Dont force things off plane, or disrupt the clubheads orbit. Change the plane angle, OK. Change the plane angle shifts OK. Artificial axis tilt , exaggerated lean back if you must, Ok. Just dont bend the plane. Adjust the machine at address.

Simply put to Hit Up on a driver , tee it appropriately in front of Low Point and slightly Inside the Plane Line and then put a good swing on it. Meaning, hit down and out, the club will come Up and In on its own.

Nah I never did get spousal say-so to build me one of dem plane things! I did build a low bench out of PVC. As for resisting CF, I do not know what that is either:) You are right in that the arm must straighten at some point. That point is a maker or a breaker. I "delay" the straightening of my right elbow by making sure that my right shoulder stays on the face of the plane as long as is possible. I guess that would be resisting CF? Shoulder acceleration first. Eventually CF is allowed to do its thang. For years people have tried to create mega-accumulator lag with the angle between the left arm and club (#2Acc.) focusing on keeping the angle etc. Homer taught me (through the magnificent little yella book that is) that you can control both the 2 & 3Acc (whose existence I was oblivious to!)with the action of the right elbow. 1F is it? Right arm participation active or passive is the tie that binds...for me...at this time...barring unforseen circumstances...or a sudden drop in barometeric pressure...or the state of my digestion...or the next time a flat bellied teen hits it 50 yards past me!:laughing9

Wow!
 

Some HALL OF FAME posts gentlemen! :salut: :salut: :salut:

Kevin

I had someone ask me if this cross line thrust was a cross line stroke. The answer is no, as Okie alluded to above. To move down plane is to move Out assuming an Inclined plane. Your divot should still point straight at the hole but with a little arc to it that is hardly noticeable unless you turn it over and look at the underside. The flatter the plane the more arc.

Here is a mental experiment. Imagine an Inclined Plane from a down the line view. Hogans sheet of glass or similar. Now draw a line on this plane from the top corner nearest you diagonally to the opposite bottom corner. Now put your eye to this line and scope it like a rifle. It points down and out towards the plane line. Move your eye to a birds eye , overhead perspective. The line is not parallel to the Target Line but points to the right of it. "Out to right field" so to speak though the Clubhead doesnt not cross to the other side of the Plane Line.

The paths of the clubhead/Hands are not perfectly straight but these observations hold in the real world in that Thrust is always straight line by definition. So the Thrust is cross line towards the plane line. Down and Out. Steering would be a redirection of Thrust towards the target, which seems logical at first, but lacks both direction and power. (Note not just direction!)

To see the effects of Plane Angle on the relative amounts of Down vs Out move your imaginary plane to more extreme angles. Upright planes having far more Down than Out. Flatter planes, like Hogans Elbow Plane having more Out and less Down. (And more In than Up post Low Point for Hand Path considerations).

And now in a further attempt to digress deeper into the abyss of "Hogan: swinging left yes , but TGM geometry compliant" controversy:

Given that the Pivot (Shoulder Turn) and or Right Arm Thrust provide the Out of Three Dimensional Impact. The Left Wrist uncocking (#2 Accumulator Angle) and Axis Tilt provide the Down. See 2-N-1.

You can, Im thinking, extrapolate that Hogan traveling the flatest usable Plane, the Elbow Plane....... probably:

-felt very rotational through the shot with a strong feel at the #4 pressure point.
-felt a goodly amount of #3 Accum roll power.
-had a sense for the delayed overtaking of the hands by the clubhead given the Travel associated with any Angled Hinge Action employment.
-noticed visually the clubhead and hands moving more In than Up post low point.
-had a strong sense of thrusting Out, towards the inside aft of the ball (especially for balls placed back of low point). The Arc of Approach.
-felt this cross line thrust at the #1 and #2 Pressure Points (direct drive) with the #3 passively sensing the lag pressure. See, hear Hogan on his #3 pp feel in the Coleman tapes. Its quite interesting.

As an aside, while Hogan most likely had a strong sense of hitting Out, I dont think he would have had any perception of using Homers Angle of Approach procedure. He didnt use it, couldnt use it given that amount of Turning through the shot! His hard turning Left Shoulder would pull the hands along the ARc of Approach. You can not Pivot hard and use the Angle of Approach actually, though a strong sense of Out on the flatter planes may suggest otherwise. That would be a feel but not a Delivery Line real. You cant use the Angle of Approach procedure while traveling the Elbow Plane either. That would be another incompatible choice of components.

...and the hits just keep on coming. Another great post OB!

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

This Guy Is Good!
 

Great post, O.B. Lot's of good stuff and dead-on.

Thanks!

:salut:

Wow, thanks for the replies, guys.

So if I understand it correctly, the main important thing is to keep the path on a straight plane line, and that means I'll be hitting the forwarded tee on the way up and in, while still having some thrust past low point.

But then maybe, the plane line should be a little more towards the right, so that when the clubface is going up and back in, it will be more square to the target than slightly closed to the target. What do you think?

Btw, I've heard that hitting down with the driver is safer, but I've also read that you can lose about 30 yards of distance.

Good idea, though; I should practice hitting down with the driver, so I have more of a safety shot. Staying in the fairway beats a longer drive into the trees. :D

I've been on Trackman twice in my life and one showed me hitting upward by 1-2* and then another showed me downward by about -1*. It's not something I think about, just move the ball position and take the stroke you normally would with a driver. Now, if I was in a long drive competition then I would really focus on hitting up, but I think in general if you want to hit up, just move the ball position and rotate the plane line a little to the right. I think you can have a ton of right arm and still hit up on the driver. Take a look at Dustin Johnson's swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXU_IC1qpdw




3JACK

I don't quite agree with that notion. If you hit up on the driver you have to worry about wind since you're launching higher and if you're long enough, many fairways tend to bottleneck. But you can still hit it pretty straight and hit up on the driver. The LPGA tour average is +3* with the driver and I'm assuming that there are some LPGA golfers that are extremely accurate with the driver.

You can gain, easily, 30 yards by hitting up on the driver. I believe JB Holmes and Tiger have the same swing speed, but the difference in Holmes being longer is he hits about 3* up with the driver while Tiger hits about 3* down.

But, you gotta find what you're comfortable and most consistent with, IMO. I think if golfers force themselves into hitting down or up and they can't quite do it, it can lead to some trouble.



3JACK

Tiger v. JB
 

So you are saying we should hit down on it then?:laughing9 I think if you need a few yards play it up, if you need to hit the fairway put some spin on it. The draw back here I think is that the sole of modern drivers encourages more of a sweeping action. Agree?

If you're not used to it:

Hit down on an imaginary ball 3-4 inches before the real ball. And assure that you don't run out of right arm before the real ball is gone. Maybe you will se a straighter ball too.

Good advice, Richie3Jack, thanks.

I guess I'll continue hitting up with the driver, as that's what I'm more comfortable with, but I'll practice hitting down too; I'm sure I can find an instance where that can come in handy.

Btw, I enjoy reading your blog. Excellent stuff. :)

@ BerntR,

Thanks, I am used to hitting up with the driver with the low point before the ball. I was just wondering if it's recommended that the right elbow straightens out at that low point or not. Thanks for the tip, though. :)

I think you should go with whatever you can get the best results with consistently. The average PGA Tour golfer hits -1* down with the driver. I think the Long Driver competition is around +4* up.

The wind is what would concern me about hitting up quite a bit with a driver. Tough to gauge just how much the ball will bend even if you strike a ball flush and the wind takes over.





3JACK

As far as wind influence goes, I guess it depends on your driver.

I play with a very hot 8* driver. Something that is quite low loft for my moderate swing speed. So I have to hit it close to low point or on the upturn to get a proper carry. Therefore I get very moderate side spin. And because it has so little loft it also has very moderate back spin.

With the driver I never see my drives baloon up in the air and I hardly see the ball being blown sideways by the either either. This is very different from my fairway woods and irons of course, and pretty much due to the low loft.

I probably see slightly less carry in windstill conditions than I would have with a carry-optimised driver, but I think addded roll makes up for it. And besides - it's with the wind in the face that distance becomes a scarce resource. So I like to use a driver that produces max carry with the wind in my face.

I play with a Bangster head. The face is so hard and so smooth I can still use it as a mirror after some 5 years of usage. The only bad thing about this head is that I hardly get any backspin and thus very little carry whenever the clubhead and ball gets wet. Then I have to use a 3 wood instead. So this is not a driver for rainy days, but it is perfect in windy conditions and good conditions.

IMO, finding a driver that really fits the player is extremely immportant both for distance and consistency.

From a clubfitting perspective, what really appeals to me about Trackman is their driver fitting and yardage gapping.

But the driver fitting can measure many things, particularly landing angle. You don't get that with other monitors and I often wonder if my landing angle is too steep.

Back when I was a junior I used to be able to generate more clubhead speed, so I could use a lower lofted driver and still get it a good ways up in the air and have to worry about the wind carrying the ball over into the rough. I'd really like to get a driver fitting soon with Trackman.



3JACK

Trackman sounds really interesting. I believe landing angle is important too. What you'd want will depend on your swing speed and the kind of course you're playing. You wouldn't want a shallow landing angle if you're a 120+mph guy playing at St. Andrews.

But I'd like to reinforce my headwind argument. Most drivers are fittet for max carry in no wind conditions. But when do we need distance the most? With the wind in the face of course. Besides, on most courses a little less carry will be easily negotiated with a lot more roll.

Hitting straight down to hit up (almost)
 

:)

While on the range today, I was experimenting with driving my impact hands almost straight down into the ball. ("Batting with a pitch elbow?") I realized that I could control the flight of any shot by the ball placement in relation to the "nutcracker" type of move.

I teed the ball a little lower and put it right in front of the the bottom of where the driver would move level to the ground. The drive, like a lot of my wood shots, produced a tv like "bb" that "climbed the hill" and made me laugh out loud!:laughing1

A fella with a Medicus driver asked me if I cared to swing the Medicus dual-hinge. I was afraid to break the stick but I repeated the same motion three times without disturbing the hinges of the club. "Elbow back and in/push straight down with a narrower stance. I had never touched the dual-hinge before!:laughing

I told the young man my left hip is artificial but the fine instruction of this site and TGM was free! :laughing1

LOL

You would be THE dream student. Learning TGM and not afraid to experiment with different ideas and components. IMO, that's what is so special about Homer Kelley's work, and what makes G.O.L.F. so fun.

No right, wrong, or best. HAVE FUN!

Kevin

Thanks Kevin and everyone for such a great site!
 

:laughing1

Yes,there is such a thing as a good 93!
 

The good news:

Elbow controlled putting works, even on topped-dress greens with sand 1" deep. (I hit six putts in the hole hard enough for them to jump out of the middle or lip out and go far, far away.) Adjusted by holding the end of the grip and metal. The line was great (subtract four strokes for too much power.)

Hitting is very dependable as long as I play the ball forward of the middle. I was bombing my driver straight and long until I broke the handle while thrusting my right arm. Ball shot out under trees and took an 8. (Easiest hole on the course a par 4 and worst I've ever taken was a 5, subtract three strokes.)

Imagining a straight line through the ball to the was very helpful.

The bad news:

I pushed about a dozen wood and iron shots about 5-10 degrees off-line. Solved the problem with placing the ball more forward in my stance and fully extending. I was afraid I would run out of arm but then I remembered the plane goes below the ground and I just needed solid contact and full extension along the line and trust that I would automatically step forward to aid extension.

I realy need to give myself more margin for error in playing shots under trees. I made several nice punch shots that would just clip the skinniest branck and deflect wildly! (Resulted in an 8 and 6 on two holes where a 6 and 5 are customary. Subtract 3 strokes for learning a lesson!)

Yes it was a 93. Someday soon, it could be an 83!


Patrick

Would you kindly elaborate? I don't understand what you mean by driving the hands straight down to the ball. Aren't you always driving the hands in a straight line to the ball from R shoulder height, but on a diagonal line? Are you saying that your hands at top are almost even with the ball, hence a much steeper downstroke? How does the nutcracker come into this? Thanks.

Pretty sure I saw some PGA stats recently whereby the average angle of attack with driver was something like -1.9 deg.......that my friends is hitting DOWN

That doesn't mean its a good thing though.

It is pretty much inarguable that you gain more distance by hitting slightly up.

Its a great move for control....not the best move for distance.

I have changed from hitting down to hitting up and have gained a lot of yardage, I still think I am probably a few degrees shy of where I should be hitting up but its a good mix for control and distance.

hitting up
 

Your handicap is ?

6.0 right now, down from 10 when I started with TGM.