Why a fade?
 

The following exchange came from the GEA site, and I'm trying to understand why the hitting pattern is said to generate a fade type ball flight. I'm a TGM novice, so be gentle.

Thanks
golf2much

Hitters set up with the face more and more closed the longer the shot to compensate for this laying back. On the other hand swingers who use horizontal hinging set up with the face more and more open the longer the shot to compesate for the closing through impact.

What I'm really asking about is what happens during the impact interval to create the fade. I think I understand what you have said( I'm a TGM novice at best), but it doesn't explain the fade ball flight. For a ball to fade, there must be a rotational component of the backspin that is left to right (right hander), which implies that the clubface must be moving in the opposite (right to left) to some extent to impart the fade spin component. How, specifically does this happen if the clubface is closing during impact interval, and on a inside to outside path?

I think it is called hinge action! 2G. Watch Chapter IV of Tom Tomasello in the gallery.

that is pretty close to accurate...

Hitters setup with more of a closed face the LONGER THE CLUB, NOT THE SHAFT.

Swingers DO NOT setup with the clup open AT ALL unless they want too.

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Now i will help clarify. First there are 3 types of HINGE ACTION:
Horizontal
Angled
Vertical

I'm not really going to go into much detail of each hinge because there is plenty of info already here that you can read and learn. I would first check out this 3D animation that our resdient Mathew created here:
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=560

Also i would advise checking out the Tom Tomasello tape on hinging here:
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=677
(i'd also check out all the other tom tomasello tapes as well)

-------------------

Swingers tend to use horizontal hinging. Horizontal hinging works like a normal door does, it simply opens and closes on a single fixed pin. The swinging OPENS the club in the backswing, hits the ball with a slightly open clubface, the face squares up during impact, and it CLOSES going back up the plane. Horizontal also produces a "hooded" or "delofting" effect as well. This gives a lower initial trajectory and often the longest shot and also usually produces either a straight shot or a small draw which produces a some roll on landing.

Hitters tend ot use angled hinging. For an explanation on how angled hinging work, please look at the animation because i can't really describe it better than what the animation shows. However i can tell you WHY angled hinging leads to a fade.

Angled hinging tends toward fading because the face doesn't "fully close" during impact like horizontal hinging does. The angled hinge CLOSES AND LAYS BACK SIMULTANEOUSLY instead of closing and hooding like horizontal hinging does. Due to this "layback" (unfinished closing effect) the ball tends to fade because it didn't square up totally through impact. Also, since angled hinging doesn't hood the club like horizontal hinging does, it creates a HIGHER initial flight.

Vertical hinging is a hinge where the clubFACE stays perpendicular to the plane. After impact the face doesn't close at all, it stays square to the perpendicular to the plane. Check out the animation and the video for an example.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the great explanation... my faith in physics is restored (LOL).

"Faith"
 

Golf2much,
Now that your faith in physics has been restored- I'd like to see my faith restored, that a few people out there have learned some basic facts of TGM. Can someone help me, by explaining one or more of the items that are incorrect in Jim's post.
Thanks,
Mike O.
P.S. In this particular situation- I'll consider the shorter your answer the more in-depth your knowledge.

What are you asking?

Angled hinging closes and laysback simultaneously and produces a "no roll feel." Due to that the ball goes higher and tends to fade depending on ball position.

Horizontal hinging closes and hoods and produces a "full roll feel." Due to that the ball goes higher and tends to draw or produce straight shots depending on how inside/out your impact is and your ball position.

Vertical hinging doesn't close and stays perpendicular to the plane line and produces a "reverse roll feel." Due to this the ball will tend to fade and be well right of the intended target.

Re: "Faith"
 

.................................................. .................................................. .....

I think Jim has the general idea, however.... technically, Swingers use Dual Horizontal Hinging. The face is slightly OPEN at impact and Square at Separation, for a straight shot.

Hitters tend to fade because of the Angled Hinge and "uncentered" motion of the clubface. 2-J-1/ 2-D-O

NO hooding in horizontal hinging.

Todd

Hey Mike 0!

I think Jim did fine (solid B to B=) for a golfer (not a teacher), in fact, there is one much more important thing about Jim....


HE CAN DEMONSTRATE!

Thanks brian.....i only try and dive into the book to the extent that i can understand.

thats why i don't own it, won't read it, and just let you interpret it for me :D

Call me lazy i don't care...haha

MBC, I don't understand how horizontal hinging doesn't hood or deloft the clubface. If you hands are leading the club aren't you hooding or delofting to some effect? Granted you can exaggerate it but isn't there some delofting to it?

Or when is the loft on a club measured when it is soled correctly and the handle is already leading slightly?

Thanks

jim

Re: "Faith"
 

I'm not sure what you are asking... I understand the hinge actions, but was misunderstanding the "starting from impact fix concept". Based on my thought that you started from impact position(fix), and the goal was to return to that position at actual impact, I couldn't figure out how the fade component was being introduced to the ball flight. What I now understand (at least I think I do), is that the face is slightly open at impact and separation imparting a small left to right spin component. Just a misunderstanding of the applciaiton of the impact fix concept.

Conversation Makes The Ready Man / Sir Francis Bacon
 

Iron sharpens iron.

Men sharpen men.

And that is why...

I love this place!

Re: Conversation Makes The Ready Man / Sir Francis Bacon
 

This is turning out to be quite a place ! BTW, you'll meet a friend of mine at your OCN sessions. DK works out at the same range I visit during lunch and has been a HK fan for a long time. Now that there are at least 2 of us that can talk mostly the same language, we have some very interesting conversations... people look at us, just shake their heads and smile. If they only knew!!!!

Thanks for all you efforts. this really is a great place
Don Luke

TGM concepts
 

Todd- Move to the head of the class! A door motion doesn't "hood".

Who's next?

P.S. Jim, your post is a great one in that it provides a great learning opportunity for those that want to take advantage of it.

Mike O.

TGM Concepts
 

Lagster,
Move to the head of the class with Todd!

Who's next?

Mike O.

My Turn
 

Mikestloc,

I think I get the spirit of Mike O's responses but before I reply any further. I'll await Mike's explanation.

However, I humbly ask that everyone refrain from personal attacks either outright or implied.

Written conversation, especially hastly written emails and forum posts are probably one of the worst forms of communication in my book. Nuances are easily missed and tone is frequently mistaken.

Thanks,

Bagger

"Who's next?"
 

Mikestloc,
In general I understand and agree with where your coming from, you make some good points. Just mixing it up a little, however since I didn't say it before - I'll make it clear here that you won't be seeing a post in that format again- not because you posted against it, but because it really isn't my normal mode of operation.
Thanks,
Mike O.

WOW You guys are so into complicating this game. I'm not a TGM "disciple" and don' t want to be based on the evidence of this and other forums. It's great that you are passionate about the game and the concepts of one guy but from what I can judge the TGM swing is ugly and obvious and much simpler than it would appear any of you would care to admit. It looks like a band-aid for people who cast. I know this as I arrived at the same swing conclusions many years ago when having trouble with throwing away the stored energy (casting). You just play the ball a little back, swing down and through with a strong left wrist and squash the ball taking a big divot. When I did this I thought I was playing good golf. It produced a nice little draw and came out lower. Man I was like the Pros. But boy it was ugly and not a real swing. I was a fake. I have since learned my lesson and play with a nice controlled fade that is derived by getting my body angles correct and letting the rest take care of itself. Check out www.garyedwingolf.com.au He is Australias' most successfull coach. e.g. Rod Pampling who just came tied 5th at US Masters. He doesn't even use a fast shutter speed when he films his pupils. He just looks at their angles and knows if they're doing it right. This is economy of motion and not to mention all this theory of hinges, planes etc...Some of you guys must get paralysis by analysis!!!

Nice first post..... :roll:

Hmm....ugly swings you say, ok:

David Toms, Brian Manzella GSED taught...one of the closest to a zero shift swing. Just beat the living pants off of everyone at the world matchplay. But ya he sucks.

Grant Waite, Chuck Evans GSED taught....was driving the ball over 300 yards, hitting 70% of his fairways, 80% of his greens...buy ya he sucks. (He currently isn't working with chuck anymore and his game has gone significantly downhill since).

Bobby Clampett....I *believe* taught by Ben Doyle (someone correct me if i'm wrong) GSED and had an awesome career and doing great until he strayed away...but oh yeah TGM ruined his swing.

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There are many many many examples.......i don't even want to waste anymore of my time with this.

If you knew enbough about TGM you would know it doesn't teach "a swing" really.

There's a lot more to TGM than meets the eye i think. I've been down the conventional PGA qualified Pro lesson route before, a few times actually. Keeping it simple actually complicated things a lot more and left me feeling confused to be honest. Rather than a PGA Pro teaching me his version of how the swing should be, TGM gives me a whole lot more options.

How you can say a TGM swing is ugly, i don't know. As birdie_man says, there really isn't a TGM swing. You can choose how to build your own customized golf swing following some guidelines. I'm fairly new to TGM but i've never been this excited about my golf game at any time in the past 10 years than i am now. Already i can feel and see the improvement, playing off a 3.4 handicap, i feel i'm close to playing 3 or 4 shots better already. That's a huge improvement. TGM works for me and that really is the bottom line.

Not ugly huh? Evidence Ted Fort's Hitting stroke with a wedge. YUK!!!! It's not golf but I can see how it's effective. You say TGM is not one swing. I think because you think that the 'bible' contains every possible movement by a golfer you believe that there is variation in what it can teach. However I maintain in my readings and viewings of info pertaining to TGM there are the basic tenets which you must achieve to swing properly and if you deviate from them you are "wrong". This, as much as many other beliefs is a method.
PS If I try to "put" my hands into a perceived correct position to create Lag or Flat left wrist I am thinking about mechanics. If you're body angles are correct the lag will happen as a by product, not something I have to concentrate on achieving and marking off on a checkpoint. I wish you good luck on this in depth pursuit of nirvana on the course. It just seems like you're reading too much into this book and Mr Kelly's teachings. It rather comes across as a religion that you either belong to or not.

X-Skeptic
 

333,

I think it's a fair bet that most of the folks that have taken a liking to Homer's work were once very skeptical. I also think it's a safe bet most of the folks that have embraced the system are thinking golfers that are fed up with the latest Golf Digest tip dijour which contradicts yesterdays tip dijour.
In either case, this forum is about the Golfing Machine and Lynn's in-depth teaching of it. You can certainly take it or leave it but I encourage you to continue to stick around and approach it with skepticism. However, as a good critic I hope you actually own a copy of the book and have made a cursory attempt to understand it. If not, your criticism will be taken at face value as evidence we have a challenge in the Marketing and Image arenas.

Do you have a copy?

One last thing. As Moderator of this board I'm putting an end to this discussion and ask that further posts are put up in another thread with the appropriate subject line. We are way off topic here. Any further off-topic posts in this thread will be deleted.

Thanks,

Bagger

Why a Fade?
 

As the thread originator... THANK YOU

Re: TGM Concepts
 

One can either hood, close, or lay back the clubface through impact. This clubface alignment produces direction control.

Hood: Only a putter can be hooded to any advantage because hooding produces overspin. This would not produce a good iron shot as it would come off very, very low. However, one could use it for specialty shots.

Closing and lay-back can be used together or seperately.

Closing without lay-back = Dual Horizontal Hinging (10-10-D)
Lay-back without closing = Dual Vertical Hinging (10-10-E)
Closing and lay-back = Angled Hinging (10-10-C)

The clubface is only square at the moment of seperation. So at Impact Fix, the clubface must be set to match the hinge action being used.

The clubface does in fact close with angled hinging, however, it's uncentered motion produces a slice. So this means the clubface alignment for short shots should be open but for longer shots it must be closed.