swinging and hitting
 

Why couldn't a swinger use right arm thrust ?

Extensor Action is a Non-Accelerating Thrust. Use as much as you can. Although it doesn't Accelerate the Clubhead directly, it contributes to precision of the Accumulators.

Hmm?, there is that 4 Barrel Swing thing.

Could you please explain Daryl?

The Accumulators, Cocked Left Wrist, Right Hand Roll, Left Arm Across the Chest and Bent Right Arm, are out-of-line conditions. But regardless of their degree of out-of-line, they need to maintain their Alignment to the Plane.

Each Accumulator may Release in a Sequence, #4,#1,#2,#3. They may be omitted or Overlapped. Each will Release On-Plane and continue Tracing the Plane Line. Left Arm Blast-Off, Thrust On-Plane; Right Arm Thrust, On-Plane; Left Wrist Uncock, On-Plane; Right Hand Roll, On-Plane.

Extensor Action keeps the Primary Lever Aligned and adds Rigidness to the Power Package so that it doesn't collapse during the Pivots powerful rotation and cause the Release of any or All of the Accumulators to move Off-Plane.

Thanks, so after all that I take it your answer is yes I could use right arm thrust as a swinger?

You're still a swinger if CF uncocks the Left Wrist. The Right Forearm is driven by the Pivot.

thank you for the information

"Swinging is Pulling and Hitting is Pushing and thats all."

It is possible to Pull, (Pitch Elbow) and Actively extend the Right Arm. If the Right Elbow leads its pulling isnt it?

Right Arm Swinging. Its not the safest of Right Elbow alignments, tending to muscle tear. You wouldnt pull a car by attaching your right hand to the side of the car and attempting to throw it forward. You wouldnt throw a shot putt. But it can be done for golf. Homer said it was a "beautiful" method, but he also warned of its potential for elbow injury. Not a certainty by any means but there is the potential.

"Swinging is Pulling and Hitting is Pushing and thats all." O.B. Left ......

Take my word for it! You can hurt your right elbow if you hit with a pitch right elbow position. BUT. you can hit with a punch position after pulling.

The "Bin there, don that" Bear

Swinging is pulling and pushing.

Hitting is pulling and pushing.

The difference between the two is .... different.

It still sounds like an active move with the right arm which I contend is not swinging. I am probably not literal to the book but thats my take.

You cant do both pulling and pushing in a swing the way I see it. The right arm is just keeping up with the left arm blast off and thus would not be able to thrust. I am sure this thought is nothing new around here.

Yup, me too. Had to start wearing my old squash, arm band for a while.

Now, when Im hitting it is most often not Drive Loading per 12-1. I employ a Swingers Startdown, Drag Loading then a Right Arm Throw. Drag then Drive with a Punch elbow and a late Random Sweep Release.....well as late as I can get it anyways. The earlier I Thrust against the #1 the earlier the Left Hand comes off the Inclined Plane, the earlier I Release, the more Push like my elbow. As if the Right Elbow aligns itself for pushing if I Release earlier. Although lately Ive slipped into an Automatic Release which maybe has me swinging..... Whether Im swinging or hitting is a fine line divided by the employment of the Right Arm Throw or not. They look very similar on tape , maybe if I stuck with Swinging for a while I'd approach a more Pitch like Right Elbow alignment but ......I keep going back and forth on Thrusting and so my elbow is Punch. I dont have much feel for #2 angle or the delay of, its more active Right Elbow in perception and feel for me.

There's this debate in some circles as to whether you can Pull and Push at the same time........ I'd say you can for pure Radial Acceleration , putting say for instance, but why would you want to for such a low powered shot? You can not employ Longitudinal Acceleration and Radial Acceleration at the same time , they are mutually exclusive. And so, you cant Drag and Drive Load at the same time from Top. One or the other or Drag then Drive later.

These debates always come down to definition. Homer wasnt wrong about it if you stick to his terminology and definitions. If you Radially accelerate Longitudinal Acceleration is over. Another way of saying this that you can only Push and Pull at the same time if you are pushing and pulling in the same direction. Pulling from Top , Drag Loading and Pushing, Drive Loading are not similarly Aligned. They bend the shaft along different axis.....90 degrees to each other. A "quarter turn" on the shaft , each with their own associated Lag Pressure Point location and Right Forearm alignment for support. All a product of the direction of Loading alone not because of a "quarter turn" of anything. Top or aft of shaft.......you cant load them both at the same time.

Before I understood this I used to like the feel of loading my #3pp at the index finger, trigger finger, first joint on the way back which had me over swiveling it under plane. It felt good but was wrong, a false feel if you will. Now I load the knuckle and presto Im on plane. No more wagging it under plane like Ray Floyd. I changed a feel and fixed my direction of Loading and Plane compliance. But like I said I Drag Load in Startdown, dont load the knuckle if you are a Drive Loader.

I do agree that most Hitters have some pulling going on, Bernt. But not necessarily all of them. And so , I think to be perfectly accurate you'd have to change the "is" to "can be" in your statement above.

Drive Loading is Pushing and Drag Loading is Pulling and thats all. To paraphrase Homer Kelley. Axe handle vs Rope Handle , Radial vs Longitudinal.

Homer was careful to make the distinction between Drive vs Drag in his "bare bones" identification of the alternate Basic Patterns of 12-1 and 12-2. He didnt label them Hitting and Swinging, after all. 12-1 isnt the only way to Hit but its the bare boned fundamental , Push only place to start. A place from which to graduate and build upon or a place to happily stay forever. Its up to you. There's nothing wrong with 12-1 somewhat rare though it is. Homer thought we'd all become Drive Loading enthusiasts actually. He loved it that much. Most of us dont give it enough of a chance maybe. Perhaps its hard to turn off all the pulling we've been doing previously. Perhaps its the pivot centric golf magazines or the effects of acid rain? I dont know.

There is an account of Homer on a driving range , asking an early A.I. to show him Hitting. When the man took it past Top to End Homer stopped him and insisted that he stop at Top........this was something that puzzled me as I always go to End when I hit. I've since concluded that Homer wasnt looking for just any Hitting pattern but rather he was expecting 12-1. Drive Loading. He did expect his A.I.s to teach 12-1 after all not just gloss over it. And in that case , Drive Loading from End is not a good idea as you have to wait for your Hands to get back to Top, on the top of the straight line Delivery Path before they can start to Drive. They need a clear straight line shot at the Aiming Point. Its a beautiful and simple pattern.

O.B., is 4 barrell hitting, like YODA, pulling with #4 from top then pushing with #1, or is it just a feeling of using #4 along with #1?

Thanks,
Kevin

But even if the beginning of the downswing is initiated by a pull it cannot release the club via CF or you could never use the pushing force of the right arm.

Watch a guy like Mickelson and VJ, their right arm is barely able to keep up, they could not be a four barrel player even if they wanted to.

I see why its very tricky to be a four barrel player, you have to blast off with #4 but with so much force that you outrace the right arm and have the club release without #1.

Drag then Drive would be four accumulators yes. Pulling then pushing in feel and in real. Overlapping Release with the Right Arm Throw. Its "pushing" but the arm motion itself is really more similar to a side arm throw. Fanning and bending not just an inline Push Basic thing. Shot putting. You pull with your Pivot , ground up and Drag the Hands down Plane .......it feels to me like the pivot pulls the #2pp. With the left hand turned to plane. The Lag Loaded at the knuckle along the top of the shaft. The shaft bending along the top/bottom axis with the change in direction.......Homer described it as "throwing the club against your knuckle" somewhere......cant find it. You feel the PIvot pull at the #2pp and the #3 at the Knuckle senses the Lag PRESSURE, the inertia to the change in directions. The pivot (Slide with a Delayed Turn) stops the Hands backwards travel so I try to Slide early in a Trolio Hogan kinda way. Axis Tilt lowering the Right Shoulder. The slide gets my weight on my left side early if it doesnt just stay there (depends on the shot) All the stuff of the Startdown Waggle, the best drill in golf.

Yoda stops at Top Hitting or Swinging ..... I sure like that but still go all the way to End, changes are hard to make. So I have to work a lot harder to not Release too early. He's Snap, Im Random Sweep. Yoda's first and foremost a Drag Loading Swinger so he's got that Active Left Wrist thing whereas Im more Right Elbow. I see golf as a right sided game with a frozen right wrist. He's got a world class flail , I dont. I cant hit a shot with just my left arm on the club to save my life. Its something Im going to do a lot of over the winter actually. I want to get more Longitudinal, rope Handle to Delay Release. There is no CF throwout during Longitudinal .....once the club moves outside the hands it Releases. Just topples over.

I havent noticed any significant distance increase really. Im just as long three barrel Id say. I have it all ramped way down though compared to some of the guys Luke teaches who are leaving nothing behind. There's a difference. Im smooth and slow like say Ernie Els (and far too frequently like Ernie of Bert and Ernie )

Hi Greg,

That must be why Yoda says you can be a 4 barrel hitter but not a 4 barrel swinger??? I'm just trying to figure out when a 4 barrel hitter fires #4, or at least what the "feel" is...

Kevin

LOL

Thanks OB. The speed YODASLUKE creates is amazing!

BTW, I have no illusions of winning the REMAX, I just want to be able to keep it up with the girl scouts again! :-)

Kevin

One or the other or Drag then Drive later.




I like this, it should work. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

Thats my understanding as well.

You have to move the right shoulder down plane as the launching pad for me that seems like a pull with the left side/shoulder/hip would facilitate this so it seems natural to have all four barrels for a hitter. I guess its a timing thing of the pull-push that might not be the best component pattern.

Id imagine they let the right hand drop off so it cant push. Their #1 pp has dropped off but the #3pp is still attached.

CF throwout requires you to not push , CF wants to go slow , the right arm wants to speed it up by pushing hard. Id say pushing annuls/ruins CF not the other way around.

In terms of 4 B vs 3B Hitting........its a matter of whether or not the Right Shoulder is moving through the shot. 3B the right shoulder is like a launching pad that is more or less parked (it isnt really but its motion is just that motion as opposed to work) . 4B the Right Shoulder is working which makes timing more difficult. Luke has an analogy to jumping off a parked car vs jumping off a car thats on the move. Why he'd want to do that I dont know. He's crazy.

So I use two throws, Shoulder Throw then Right Arm Throw.

Speaking of Luke , when he rebuilt swing er Hit.........he started with Chip Basic , did nothing but Chip Basic for a month or so. Then he went to Acquired , then Total Motion. He built it from the ground up. And he was a seasoned PGA teaching professional at the time. So we amateur enthusiasts have no excuses. If we want to improve we must start at the beginning...... 12-1 or 2 and 12-5. Dont move past 12-1 until you have mastered it. Dont move past Chip Basic until you have mastered it. You can play some great golf with a 2 B pattern.

I really think this swinging vs hitting is one of the weak points in TGM.

I really mean "is". For anyone who has hopes of breaking 200 on a par 72 course. But show me a hitter who doesnt rotate his left shoulder. Or a hitter who has so little drag that he really doesn't need his left arm ..... but I don't think you can.

The drive loading from top certainly has a lot of drag (pull) during transition for a proper release. I assume that you have a lot of #2 angle at the top....

If you go by a rope handle procedure you still have to do some pushing to create a circular motion. If all you do is pull, you will not wag the dog. You will only walk the dog. In the purest of TSP swings - perhaps even without extencior action, PP#4 will get things started. Wen you rotate the left shoulder, pp#4 will push the primary lever until CF throwout takes over. Then you can "drive it home";-) with pure rope handling. If all you had was a rotating left shoulder you would never get the action started.

Same thing with the drive loading, basically. A push doesn't make up for a curving motion.

As for axe handling I recommend that you consult your left hand and arm. Do you not feel any pull there at all?

It takes torque to produce a circular motion. A torque is like a simultanous push and pull. A human golfing machine pulls with the left side and pushes with the right, hitting or swinging.

I agree, and I think that was wisely done by Homer. But you can driveload and drag. Or dragload and push. If you go into the nitty gritty of TGM swing with PP#4 and extencior action there's pushing involved.

Drive vs drag: One can be more active than the other. But you need both to create a circular path. None of them is able to produce a swing like motin on their own.

I never have, never will, seen a good hitter without a proper pivot turn, including a proper drag that lasts until well past impact.


I do both, and based on what you describe about your own stroke we're doing something similar. When I am at my best (which isn't very often and relly not that good when it comes to it), I have a sort of race condition between the dragging and the driving where I can vary the composition depending on what I want to do with the ball.

Today I hit a ruler straight knock down with my sand wedge into 2 club wind. Without any sign of draw. It was the sweetest shot I've hit for years and I converted the birdie :)

Hitting it low requires hands forward and a lot of drive loading. And usually produces a strong draw or a hook on my behalf. But this time i managed to counterbalance the punch with some extra dragging through impact.

I play regularly with a double digit handicapper who really struggles to get his pivot through the shots. He wants to imrpove and works diligently on his stroke. But as long as he quits with his lower body he will never get a consistent stroke. He disconnects with his lower body and often he looses the feel of the club weight in his left hand. He is about 5 inches taller than me and much bigger and stronger. But still I regularly outdrive him with 50-100 yards. Today - for the first time - I somehow managed to convince him to really crank his pivot through the shot and continue to a full finish. He gained some 30-40 yards on his drives even though there was still a lot of compensation involved in getting the clubhead and club face on the vincinity of the right path. And I think for the first time he really could sens what it means to hit the ball hard. We had a really good time because of this.

I'm all for pivot centric approaches. But the pivot isn't just about the left side. When it works properly it pushes and pulls.

I havent' listened to those Homer tapes. Would love to if you care to share.

I think HK expects a hitter to start from the top, taking dead aim with pp#3. No pressure point rotation. When you use pressure point rotation I think it becomes 4 barrel swing (?). And if you don't, but do the pp#4 blast it becomes a 4 barrel hit (?) Please correct me if I've got this wrong.

Some of the difference that is different - or so I think - is that when you swing, you swing your primary lever with your shoulder. You use dead hands and after transition the shoulder turn and CF keep your hands where your shoulder turn gives you max leverage.

When you hit, you still swing with you shoulders, but you also swing your primary lever around your left shoulder. You delegate some of the swingers' pivot work to the right arm. But you need a proper pivot action as a basis to be sucessful with the TGM hitting.

A lot of people enters LBG to find a way to improve their game. Some of them turns towards hitting because they haven't learned how to use their pivot properly. And here on LBG they get the message that swinging is drag loading and pivot orientet, while hitting is a thrust with the right arm. Which is probably what 50% tries to do initially. So they get the impression (perhaps) that they can learn to play golf without developing a proper pivot and without developing proper fundamentals.

When the role of the pivot and dragging is so underplayed in the hitting pattern description they get the impression that they can learn to strike the golf ball by using the right tricep only. While I may be exaggerating here, there's certainly more than a little truth in it.

Dragging and driving is yin and yang in golf. You can perhaps emphasize one over the other, but you still need the other to make your choosen one work.

If I recall correct, Homer recommended to learn swinging before trying hitting. I totally agree. I actually regard hitting or any other form of drive loading as a refinement and adjustment to an already functioning basic swing motion.

And I love to watch videos of Yoda hitting the ball. The man has a great looking stroke. What he does with his right tricep has very little to do with why it looks so good to me. What he does with his feet, hips, torso and shoulders have everything to to with it. The signatur of his stroke looks almost similar when he's swinging and it takes a really trained eye to spot the difference. I think that says a lot about the similarities between the two patterns.

Again Id say these sorts of debates are a matter of definition. I agree with a lot of your points , on their own but ...... lets discuss the merits of Homer's insights using the terminology as he defined it. Its pointless otherwise.


Where does Homer say a Hitter doesnt rotate his left shoulder? Or need his left arm? Even in Drive Loading, 12-1-0 its 12-A Standard Pivot.

Drive Loading doesnt zero out the Pivot in Total Motion its a means of transporting , delivering the power package to the Release Point for all but Full Sweep Release. If thats what you define as "pulling" then we're operating under different definitions. Your "pulling" including Pivot motion or work. There's a big difference. Pivot motion doesnt load the knuckle, simply put. Doesnt bend the shaft along the bottom/top. But pivot work does.

I agree with you on the visual similarity between Swinging and Hitting for some players , Yoda for instance. I cant tell the difference unless he (as he sometimes likes to do) adopts a tell tale 10-2-D grip when Hitting. But he Drag Loads when he Hits and gets darn close to Snap. He's got a lot of Swinging Alignments to his Hitting. These patterns are like a person's signature , they're unique although the components might be shared with another golfer. Two guys named George but with different signatures. I'd never look like Yoda in a million years and it would probably be a useless exercise to attempt it, beautiful though it is. Man I wish though. Who was it that quoted Moe as saying "dont swing like Moe, swing like you." Thats a great quote.

But I can assure you that Yoda in Release uses a different source of thrust with a different direction to the Thrust even when he changes from Hitting to Swinging, similar looking though it may be. Pressure Point #1 is not located on the same spot on the handle as pp#2.

If Yoda put up some 12-1 Drive Loading swings then you'd see a difference between his Hitting and Swinging. Then there'd be less Longitudinal to his Hitting given that procedure.

How can you accelerate Radially and Longitudinally at the same time?

Where's the Thrust? If the Thrust is "ahead" of the deadweight, it's pulling, if it's "behind" the deadweight, it's pushing. For a Swinger, The Left Shoulder and Arm are being Pushed by the Pivot but the Force acting on the Clubshaft is ahead of it. A horse Pulling a Hay-rack is pushing on its Collar but the Force is ahead of the cart.


The following can be found in my new book "Sociopolitical Context of Multicultural Diversity Among Hitters and Swingers". I'm hoping that Random House picks it up.


The Only Essential Difference between a Hitter and Swinger is the Mechanism that Uncocks the Left Wrist. See 2-P , 7-1, 10-19-0, 10-19-A below. It boils down to the Source of Thrust that moves the Clubshaft/Clubhead.

"2-P THE WRISTCOCK
Centrifugal Force alone Uncocks the Swinger’s Wrists, but Right Arm Thrust during Release is the Hitter’s procedure. Except per 2-M-3 these procedures are not compatible (10-19-0)."

"7-1 GRIPS – BASIC Basic Grip is the term indicating the mere act of holding on to the Club and relates primarily to the proximity of the Hands. They simply are either close enough to overlap or they are not close enough to overlap. So all non-overlapping Grips are Baseball Grips.

The Grips of Hitters and Swingers must differ in tightness. But still per 1-L-3, 6-B-3-0-1, 7-3 and 10-6-B. For the Swinger, Centrifugal Force Uncocks BOTH the Left Wrist and the Right Elbow per 7-19 and 7-20. So both must remain “Passive” but never “Whippy.” For the Hitter, the Right Triceps become “Active” and execute both Uncocking motions with a firmness that approaches the mandatory rigidity of the Right Wrist. With both procedures, the Flying Wedges’ alignments, as always, never waver. Grip types other than the Strong Single Action (10-2-B) either destroy the Wedges or produce inferior deviations. Also study 3-F-6. The prestressed (bent) clubshaft (10-19-A) and maximum Swing Radius (10-19-C) are resistances to Impact Decelerations that each must establish before – not during – Impact (2-M-1)." Bold by Daryl

"10-19-0 GENERAL….Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging."
Therefore, neither do their related procedures."

"10-19-A DRIVE LOADING Drive Loading is the “Axe Handle” technique of the “Hitter” – an out-and-out Right Arm Thrust against Clubhead Lag (Angular Inertia) striving to accelerate (radially) a Pre-stressed (Bent) Clubhshaft, from a slow Start Down through Impact. Per 7-19-1. See 2-N."
bold by Daryl




4 Barrel Hitting

Normally, the 3 Barrel Hitter uses the #4 PP to deliver The Loaded Power Package to the Launching Pad without Accelerating the Left Arm. See 2-M-3. Hmm? so there is a Launching pad somewhere other than the Top of the Backstroke. (my contention all along, but that's another thread)

A 4 Barrel Hitter “Looks” like a Swinger. In 2-M-4 below, is a description of "How" a 4 Barrel Hitter uses the Pivot to supply the initial Acceleration of the Loaded Power Package. A strong “Left Arm” Blasting off the Chest. Then, the Right Triceps is used to Uncock the Left Wrist with enough Force as needed to Overcome the "Pull" of CF. How long would that Procedure take to "Perfect"?

So, the Pivot can be used in one of Two Ways. It can either throw the Left Arm off the chest or simply deliver it. See 7-12 For further Hints on "How to become a 4 Barrel Hitter", see 2-M-3 below.

Most of the 24 Components already are the same with Swinging and Hitting.



"2-M-4 BODY POWER Inertia can hold the Left Arm against the chest while the Body Turn is accelerating it and Momentum can then sustain it and come out with the Feel of Left Arm Power. See 2-K. To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting the Swinger’s essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact. Or, as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitters loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot Speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed. Study 6-B-4, 6-C-0, and 7-12 in this connection."
Bold by Daryl

"7-12 PIVOT………It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitters driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer to the Swinger’s orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3)."
Bold by Daryl Meaning that for Hitters, the #4 PP is used to deliver the Power Package but not Release it's stored power.

"2-M-3 MUSCLES Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives #4 Accumulator through Impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during Delivery. The Pattern of the Stroke being used designates where Thrust is to originate and that is completely the player’s option. See 10-4 and 10-19. Pivot Thrust alone (2-K), forfeits Right Arm Thrust (6-B-1). Power Package Thrust alone (6-0), forfeits Momentum Transfer (2-K). Only with the driver must you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for the lack of a longer Club. In which case – to Pivot Thrust add a strong Pressure Point #4 thrust per 10-19-C. Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4. Study 4-D-0, 6-B-2-B, and 10-4-D in this connection."
Bold by Daryl. Meaning: "Thrust to the Clubshaft/clubhead"

Daryl Got It Right
 

In the Stroke Patterns above, Daryl has deliberately listed the Variations from the 6th edition, not the 7th. Specifically, he listed the Standard Shoulder Turn (versus Rotated) and the Standard Hip Turn (versus Slide).

Also, in the Drag Loading (Swinging) Pattern, he corrected the description of 6th edition's Component #23 Variation (from Straight Line to Top Arc and Straight Line). The Variation reference itself, 10-23-C, was (and is) correct.

I strongly endorse Daryl's decision to maintain the Variations as listed (in a variety of Stroke Patterns) and published by Homer Kelley in the first six editions. Also, for owners of only the 6th edition, his correction of the Variation Description (which oversight was posthumously corrected in the 7th).

:salut:

I like 2-M-4. To me it speaks of "how to pull". Dont pull with the Left Arm for Total Motion. It'll pull off the body....triggering Release. Chip Basic is a different story, with the Pivot zero'd you can , if you so choose, employ a 10-3-D Left Arm Pull. You need to pre position your Right Shoulder so you dont run out of right arm.

In Total Motion the left arm is inert , stretched out by EA at the #1 , a "non accelerating" Thrust. The turning Pivot , the On Plane dive of the Right Shoulder in Startdown turns the Left Shoulder which pulls the left arm. For me the pull feels like a tug at the #2pp with the Left Hand turned to Plane. The #4pp is snug.

Sorta sounds like a Startdown Waggle doesnt it? You have to be on your left side.

At least I have the Updates right.

points..
 

Couple of point :
I have 2 6th editions.
Oldest copy has the 12-2 error in 23 says C then straight line- as mentioned
newest copy has a sticker over 23 and 24 and the change to 23 is A then top arc and straight line- transposition of the error. I got it new that way- anyone else see this??

I wish the explanation of swinging/hitting said this is how to move the "hands" not "clubshaft/clubhead".

It is a feel to me that (beyond the application of force) it is the PIVOT that creates the "out" in swinging and the "around" in hitting.

Just my note, wish and feel.

The Bear

Yes!

And as long as you have two hands on the club as per driveloading or extencior action, you will have a two sided thrust. One side pushing and the other side pulling, whether you hit or swing.

Precicely.

I don't think you can become a good hitter without mastering most of the swing fundamentals.

You can replace some of the pivot motion range perhaps with a right hand thrust but you still need a lively and connected pivot to get anything out of that thrust. And as long as you turn those shoulders, there will be rope handling that creates swing speed, whether the other side axes or not.

"Some of the difference that is different - or so I think - is that when you swing, you swing your primary lever with your shoulder. You use dead hands and after transition the shoulder turn and CF keep your hands where your shoulder turn gives you max leverage.

When you hit, you still swing with you shoulders, but you also swing your primary lever around your left shoulder. You delegate some of the swingers' pivot work to the right arm. But you need a proper pivot action as a basis to be sucessful with the TGM hitting."

Gets even more complicated when you consider that you can pull with the left side or the right side.

Per HK
 

chapter 13
NON-INTERCHANGEABLE COMPONENTS

13-0 paragraph 3
......Again-Pull Stroke (Left Arm Swinging) rules out the use of Radial Acceleration(10-19-A).

The Bear

TGM Ambiguity
 

mb6606,

I think you have nailed the most basic difference between hitting and swinging. When you hit, you substitute some of the pivot rotation with arms rotation.

This discussion is taking us into an area where TGM seems to be at odds with Sir Isac Newton's physics theories and laws. I wouldn't go as far as saying that TGM is wrong, but I would say that TGM is confusing and inconsistent with regards to separating hitting and swinging. Faulty assumptions and explanations that are raised here on LBG passes unnoticed ever so often.

There is unclarity with regards to the difference between rope handling and centripetal force (what was called radial force above) that is highly misleading. They are not the same, but they seem to be regarded a such very often.

When you pull the rope, you're partly pulling the club towards the swing center and partly pulling it forward. The first part of the pull carries the centripetal force and all it does is keep the club in orbit. No change in swing speed because of centripetal force, only change in speed direction. The other part - the forward part - is tangential force that adds swing speed. It works in pretty much the same way as a right hand thrust with PP#1. I really like Daryl's take on this.

This centripetal / centrifugal / rope handling mess often leads to the misconception that a swinger uses centripetal force to create clubhead speed. Centripetal force doesn't produce speed. Never has, never will. Only tangential force (linear force per TGM) produces swing speed.

I really like the G.O.L.F acronym. It says it all, really: Geometrically Oriented Linear Force. Homer is so close there. Centripetal force handles the geometry by keeping the club on a circular path. Linear Force creates speed. It's really that simple.

Then there's the implied assumption that you can't use centripetal force in a hitting procedure. While the truth is that you must if you want to create a motion that looks remotely like a golf stroke where the club moves around your body. You can't avoid doing it. And with two hands on the club you will to a large extent create clubhead speed the same way as a swinger does. The hiting stroke is in this regard a swing without pp#3 rotation and where driveloading substitues some of the swingers rope handling.

Much of this confusion is related to the description of Accumulator #4 which is incomplete in TGM.
It starts in chapter two:

From there, Homer proceeds to present the three lever forms that he uses throughout. They are supposed to be all inclusive. In doing so, he basically excludes the shoulder rotation from the equation. Instad the shoulder turn is labeled as a "carrier of motion and nothing more" when PP#4 isn't engaged.

I think Homer used PP#4 as the partner to Accumulator #4 because he made his explanations dependent on the three lever forms. The only lever force he found with regards to the left arm was the pp#4 so he used that. Doing so he missed the incredible torque that the left shoulder pull and the right shoulder push represents each of their own and together. The strong pull that you get through the left arm during the down swing is often mistaken for pp#4 pressure and the "blast-off".

There are several ways to model how the left shoulder really works. A simple torque around the swing center would be be sufficient. But none of the lever forms is fit to describe how the left shoulder actually creates swing speed. The lever forms only covers the PP#4 part of it. Same thing can be said about driveloading and the right shoulder. The part of it that is done between the ground and the right shoulder may very well be analysed in a similar manner.

I haven't been able to find where Homer describes when Accumulator #4 is inline. I don't think he did. But it seems to be assumed that Accumulator #4 is inline when the left arm has left pp#4. But in reality, Accumulator #4 is in a very good out-of line condition when the arm is at 90 degrees to the shoulders (as seen from above). That's the alignment where the pull from the left arm has the largest distance away from the swing center. Accumulator #4 isn't inline before the left arm is raised to shoulder high and pointing down the shoulder line. Something that will not happen until the finish.

TGM:
First part of this is correct. If you don't turn the shoulders, the swing center will move towards the left shoulder and you will only get centripetal force through the left arm. Yet we see a lot of hitting descriptions as if the shoulders doesn't turn.

Second part is incorrect for a stroke with a straight left arm and a left hand holding on to the club. Only with one hand can you use Accumulator #1 alone. If the rope is thight you're using Accumulator #4 also.



Admittedly, there are several paragraphs in TGM that more than hints that there's more going on with the pivot than a little pp#4 thrust. But those parts are only prosaic and lacks foundation in the theoretical framework that Homer prepared for TGM. Thus you get a lot of instances where TGM is lacking and not lacking at the same time, depending on which paragraph you read. But as a framework this is a serious omission and it does impact how we understand TGM.

TGM doesn't have the mechanisms for power transmission from the pivot to the accumulators properly outlined. No wonder then, that TGM is regarded among a few critics as underplaying the significance of the pivot drive. This is especially the case in the hitting stroke. But also in the swing, where you may get the impression that all efforts are over when the right arm has left pp#4.

Much of what I've said here may be somehow off topic, but it makes all the difference in the world towards understanding the similarities between hitting and swinging and the common requirements for producing a stroke as far as physics and geometry is conserned. And also towards understanding how some of the big horsepower is generated and leveraged in the golf stroke. I tried to start a thread a few months ago in the lab that addressed Accumulator #4 but the response was zero. There are geometrical drawing and force diagrams there that outlines how Accumulator #4 works and hopefully they do not require an MSc degree to understand. Here: http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread7114.html

This post and your post in the Lab are excellent examinations into the #4 Accumulator.

I doesn't seem like you have ever experienced the "Blast Off" that Homer Kelley talks about.

The #4 Accumulator becomes In-Line when the Triangle (Both Arms Straight) re-forms at Follow-Through. The "Straight" Left Arm doesn't actually ever become 90 degrees to the Shoulders.

Makin' Things Right
 

Bummer.

Times two!

:shock:

What to do?

Just take matters into your own hand -- the pen and your knowledge of truth! -- and make the appropriate changes.

Worked for me!

:)

I still say its a matter of definition. There's one accumulator Hitting, two , three , four.......... 12-1 isnt Hitting general its 3 accumulator Drive Loading, only.

BerntR you make a good case for Pivot work when Hitting .......I do that myself. A lot of people do. Homer actually defined this procedure.

Hitting can be very similar to Swinging , I agree but not as defined in 12-1 Drive Loading vs 12-2 Drag Loading. Something Homer outlined for the delineation of the bare boned separate identities of the two alternate procedures. Drive or Drag. These are the opposite ends of the pushing/pulling spectrum. Radial vs Longitudinal. There for one to discover and separate.

BerntR, Zero Pivot, one accumulator Hitting is not recommended for Total Motion..........to me that procedure is only outlined in 12-5 Basic Motion. 12-1 is, per 12-0, Total Motion and lists the Pivot as .... Standard Pivot. No Hitter zero's his pivot for a driver.........unless he is physically limited to such a procedure maybe. I played with a guy like a while back, 80 years old or so........he shot less than 200, less than 100 even.

Add left arm like a piece of string not actively contributing to the stroke. Then left arm like a karate chop??? More confusion. Where is the right side in all this?? Homer is probably chuckling somewhere reading this thread.

couple more comments
 

First- I do have a "slightly" different concept for the free body diagrams of the pinned structure. The engineering advocates may make note of the NIH factor.

Second.- What I said in comment 2 and 3 back in post #29 still holds.

The Bear

Thank you,

I appreciate it.

Oh yes. I played one or two seasons with a lot of blasting. I even do it now from time to time. I know how incredible efficient and powerful, yet effortless it feels.

Even though I've probably never done it as well as you do.

But my beef with this is that the blast off isn't driven by pp#4 pressure. PP#4 may be what starts the chain reaction but it's not the force that creates all the effortless power.
That definition is fine by me. But then we must be clear that Accumulator #4 inline is different than the inline of the other accumulators. Because Accumulator #4 can still produce a lot of linear force with both arms straight. Not least through impact. It is very easy to demo with a putter, hands forward, extencior action and a little rocking with the shoulders.

I know 12-1-in-text is 100% driveloading. But 12-1 in flesh is driveloading and drag loading, IMO. The driveloading will reduce the significance of the drag loading, but I don't see how it is possible to zero the drag loading for a golfer.

I know that you do. And it makes all the sense in the world. My point is you can't avoid it.

I agree that they are 12-1 and 12-2 aree about as far apart as they can be. But I don't see it as a physical possibility to drive without dragging.
I agree. And when with two hands on the club and a non-zeroed pivot you get drag loading in addition to the drive loading. If you're a good hitter you will get it in spades.

OB Left,

I think you need to look behind the yellow book to digest what I'm talking about. A lot of it is written between the lines here and there, but TGM is about precise information and clarity, and how the pivot powers the golf stroke is a big issue.