Who "said" this?
 

I heard. "Someone" said the plane is "D" shaped. ( Not the "D" plane being discussed elsewhere) BUT ( The plane is 3 dimensional). Who said this? Was it Ben Doyle? Where was it said, written or otherwise available and amplified?

The Bear

The Plane is 3 dimensional? Ya who said that one? Thats up there with the curved plane.

Here is what they are missing , to my mind. THE plane, is a plane , 2D , its angle of inclination can change (plane shift) but the base line can stay , ideally does stay in place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeizRf3JZY

Ben Doyle mentioned that the Plane can be "Curved" in his TGM 24 Components Video.

Curved Planes
 

Ben may have been referring to the various Plane Shifts, e.g., from Elbow to Turned Shoulder and back again. But since those Shifts tend to be more vertical, i.e., directly from one to another, maybe not.

Then again, he may have been referring to the Turning Shoulder Plane (10-6-D).

I don't remember a reference to 'curved' planes in the various editions of TGM. There may well be, but I can't recall it.

Haven't watched his video in a while, but I'm sure I will again. No doubt Ben had something specific in mind. I will pay special attention next time.

:golfcart2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeizRf3JZY

How am I doing here?

In regard to the above illustration of 1-L-18. Assuming plane shifts and looking down the line: If you were to plot the travel of the clubhead (or the hands) in three dimensional space that plot would be curved somewhat (depending upon the nature of the shifts) But the Plane is a flat Plane , which shifts angles. ( And maintains a straight line base line).

Its this straight line base line which is so ideal for tracing. The curve of the clubheads travel in three dimensional space is its geometric equivalent but an attempt to cover it would be far more difficult as your "curve" changes for any variation in length of club, ball position, plane shifts etc etc. The plane line just keeps on pointing straight line.

The circle lies flat (2D) on an inclined plane, which can shift its angle of inclination.

Words do a horrible job of describing geometry .......

Ya, I reviewed that part of his video. Hmm? Where did I get that Idea? He only said that the Plane Angles could float - from one to another.

Interesting though he said that Transfer Power is the Pivot transferring power (?) to the right forearm. I'm going to look that up for sure.

I'm thinking back to three dimensional calculus -- there's a z factor to any formula you'd write to describe the surface area traced by the club shaft as the plane shifts.

Having said that, I'm betting the "feeling" for most of us would be a flat as a flitter no shift plane.

Thanks guys. You are all "spot on".

I was wondering, has "anyone" written or talked about the plane as viewed from the front (Target side "backwards" down the line) ? The front edge of the plane At follow-through? Both arms straight, shaft still on plane. Is this a TSP?

The Bear

Its a TSP if you shift to that plane in Follow Through or just Stay on it throughout the swing.

Zero Shift would have you TSP throughout , zero shift is very uncommon however. Singe shift would have you staying on the TSP after Startdown, double shift would have you stay on the lower plane (Elbow Plane or whaterver you choose). You could add another shift and shift from the Elbow back up to the TSP Triple Shift ..........any and all combinations are available to the golfer, but shifting can be hazardous of course.

The lower planes through the ball have a pronounced feel for going "left" or IN , which they in fact do. The steeper planes have more a feel for the UP , which is geometrically true as well.

Follow Through......Both ARms straight, Impact Hands, Flying Wedges , club still on plane would be your ideal, yes. Plane Angle dependent upon personal preference.

This assumes we are talking about the common situation where the Shaft lays flat on the Inclined Plane as opposed to the Clubhead only describing a Plane of Motion. Homer did allude to this bit of business........which would require a change to 1-L-5. Homer was that kinda guy. Single Horizontal is non (shaft) planar for instance , the shaft describes a cone, the clubhead rides a flat horizontal plane though. You can forget this caveat if you want......too much coffee today. Im sorry Bear ........where were we.

O.B.
Thanks.
Like a few second opinions here. Both arms straight, shaft on plane. continue to trace. Looks like the options are TSP or off plane manipulation. That is significant because the Elbow plane golfer would have shifted to TSP at follow-through. The implications are enormous. Looking for sources that have addressed this issue or where HK put it as I have not found it in TGM.

The Bear

Maybe I didnt chose my words carefully enough........Id say any plane or off plane. With the "off plane" being intentional sometimes.

You can hit some nice little lob shots on the Hands Plane and be planar or go non planar by design .....say like a Lee Trevino hold off fade , angled hinge with no Release Swivel , club not pointing at the plane line in Finish. You got options. But for the standard Total Motion planar application........in Follow Through: Both Arms Straight, Flying Wedges, Impact Hands, shaft on "a" Plane (the ones between the TSP and Elbow are most common).

Ill shut up now.

I'm lost here. Are you referring to keeping the shaft on-plane until the finish swivel or re-planing the club after Both Arms Straight?

The question. Straight forward without subterfuge. Total motion, at and past follow through, both arms straight. What plane are you on?

The bear

According to my laser stick, I'm always on-plane from backstroke to finish. TSP.

Bear,
Instead of everyone answering in separate posts, I thought I would help everyone out by condensing a few into one post.

O.B. - would be off plane - strictly by default
Bucket - switching planes at each micro second during the swing - it would change with every swing - so there is no answer for him.
Fort - On a plane that would have full a service buffet with beautifual flight attendants.

Got it. now
 

I got it now.

Thanks

Thie answer is:
"This stuff hurts my head" . Marshall Mcluhan

He also said- Don't know, Don't care and Don't want to know because the media is the message.

We know there are single planes, Bi-planes and the old Fokker is a tri-plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQNivz8dpIc

Need something closer to home??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOdX...eature=related

The Bear roams in the woods.

Medium is the Massage

Single Shift so TSP. Dont try to do it , it just happens for some reason.

Was looking into my right front pocket and saw my elbow pass by, my shoulder was not even close.

Has nothing to do with this thread. It is just one of my observations, Look, Look, Look. That is the second of the three Looks.

The Bear passing by

hi Guys

i've heard 'look look look' referenced quite a few times would someone point me to the significance of it - TIA

i thought the look look look may have been specific to something in the stroke but perhaps this is simply a way of saying pay close attention (to whatever is being worked on)

My interpretation.
TGM is groups of 3- club face, club shaft, club head in this case. Follows from flat left wrist, straight plane line, Lag pressure point etc. Look and check your alignments. I said the second look because we were talking plane-shaft and right forearm at the right pocket.

The Bear

thanks - yes that makes sense

Like a few second opinions here. Both arms straight, shaft on plane. continue to trace. Looks like the options are TSP or off plane manipulation. That is significant because the Elbow plane golfer would have shifted to TSP at follow-through. The implications are enormous. Looking for sources that have addressed this issue or where HK put it as I have not found it in TGM.

That's probably right. Look to see if the alignments are correct.