10-19-C Start down ?
 

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone might help me to understand 10-19-C Drag Loading a little better. The book says
"Drag Loading is the Rope Handle Technique of the Swinger, and out-and-out Pull, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lenghthwise, from a quick Start Down to Release.

I'm having trouble with this concept of the quick Start Down. In the Alignment DVD's, Yoda talks about starting the downswing with the hip slide while the arms stay in place at the Top. To me that feels like a slow start down, and my attempts to make it quick usually end up with a jerky motion that goes way over the top. Can anyone help me clear up my misunderstandings about what Mr. Kelley is saying? Thanks.

Proper sequencing. No matter the procedure used, you need to start the hips first (Hula-Hula) or you rotate around your right leg... I haven't been able to grasp the meaning of "quick" start down either. Hopefully someone else will explain further.

:golf:

Kevin

My guess would be that once you've done the Hula-Hula, a steady acceleration Clubshaft lenghthwise helps maintaining lag however one would have to be able to properly release the lag and overacceleration would cause loss of Lag Pressure.

This is in contrast to Drive Loading where the Start Down is a slow and deliberate transport of the power package to the release point in order not to run out of right arm before follow-through.

I understand proper sequencing and the downswing starting "from the ground up" per Hogan, or Hula-Hula. But regardless of swinging with the "steady acceleration Clubshaft lengthwise" or hitting with a "slow and deliberate transport of the power package", the Start Down still does not feel like a "quick" movement to me. I think I am missing something important as I am fairly confident that Mr. Kelley did not italicize those terms without good reason.

I'm foggy on this quick vs slow thing too, great question. It feels slow either way to me too.

I'd guess that the distinction is between Drive and Drag Loading and the existence of any Hip Work as opposed to merely Hip Motion. Any Hip Action, Work tending to induce Pulling and therefore Longitudinal Acceleration as opposed to Drive Loadings purely Radial Acceleration.

Ground Up vs not Ground Up in other words. Were talking 12-1 pure Drive Loading not just any old form of Hitting here. A hitter using a Swingers Startdown would be Ground Up and pull hard, longitudinal acceleration prior to Thrusting Radially.

I dunno.

Quick Response
 

Here is a response I received from Yoda many, many moons ago, when asking the same question:

"When Power is a consideration, Swingers must generate an Instantaneous Acceleration in the Start Down to 'Crank the Gyroscope' and 'spin the flywheel' (2-K). This sets up the Centrifugal Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1). For Hitters, that Acceleration must begin slowly and then be Timed for Maximum Thrust through Impact (6-C-2-D and 6-F-1).

The idea is that an instantaneous Hip Action -- this is the 'quick' -- initiates the proper Downstroke On Plane Right Shoulder Turn and Release Sequence. When Homer talked of this Swinger's Start-Down, he would always refer to "Hogan's move."

Nevertheless, even though the Acceleration generated by the Hip Action is 'instantaneous,' the Hands still Feel the Loading as 'deliberate, positive and heavy.' In fact, the more 'instantaneous' the Hip Action, the more the 'held back' Hands Feel 'deliberate, positive and heavy.' Even though this loading action will cause the Hands ultimately to move faster in the Downstroke, they will not Feel faster -- only more...you guessed it:

Deliberate;

Positive; and...

Heavy.

It is an enhanced sense of Effective Mass versus Velocity (2-M-1)."

Thanks Drew.

Is this then the application (or not) of Pivot Power, Power Accumulator #4? 4B hitters using a Swingers Start Down being 4,1/2,3 etc?

Thanks Drew!!! :salut:

Thanks Drew, not that I do it all the time but that kind of feeling in the swing makes sense to me.

You can really feel the quick start down by using a preturned hip, at the start down, with the hip slide goes first, the shoulder the hands will response and all come quickly.

Drive Loaders and Drag Loaders , in Total Motion, can Slide their Hips (with a Delayed Hip Turn) to Tilt the Axis and lower their Right Shoulder. (Edit: I believe the 7th edition changed 12-1-0, 12-2-0 pt 14 Hip Turn from Standard to Slide)

The question, I think, assuming I have Homer's definitions straight , is the nature of the Hip Turn.......is it Work or Motion? Does it Pull hard to set up a Swingers Centrifugal Throwout Action or merely support Muscular Driveout for the true Drive Loader. Longitudinal or Radial? Does Hip Action pull the Right Shoulder Down and Through the shot or does Hip Motion merely aid in the sneaking of the Right Shoulder down to the Release Point , a position from which the Right Shoulder can then backstop the Driving Right Arm Throw.

But their is a hybrid .......you can also Spin the Flywheel and then over ride the Swingers CF Throwout Action with an Active Thrust of the Right Arm (Right Arm Throw with Pitch elbow not Push for Total Motion). This'd be your 4B Hitting Procedure, I believe.

There's a difference in the location of the Lag Pressure Point for all of this stuff. Rotated vs non Rotated Lag Pressure Point #3, see 6-H-0 . Its critically important to understand how these procedures should feel in the Hands so that you can properly monitor them via Lag Pressure.

I dunno, we need Daryl , king of all Hip Action.

Lag and the bent shaft
 

I remember a great photo sequence in Jimmy Ballard's How to Perfect Your Golf Swing. It was of Tom Watson, 2 photos, one right at the top of the back swing, the second after the beginning of his hip turn on the downswing. The club looks like it is in the exact same position, except it is bent in the second photo. He has already created his lag with that hip move, and that happened very quickly.

I have more luck thinking of lag as shaft bend rather than body position or geometry. Once you bend the shaft coming down, you must keep it bent until after impact.

Im not sure if you can really hold shaft bend but the thought or the attempt to do it is good to my mind. Interestingly Homer is on record as seeing what we call shaft kick or backward bending pre impact to be the shaft lagging the line or sweet spot plane between the #3pp and the clubhead. The text in the book seems to support holding shaft bend however .......something Im confused about. If he came to see shaft kick as lag why didnt he edit the book accordingly. Maybe I read it wrong.

I dunno. Im going from memory dont have my book with me.

By the way, I'm no expert at this--struggling with understanding it like most. I took a driver with a whippy shaft and did some experiments. First, I set it with the face touching a table leg. Got in address, and went towards impact fix. The shaft bent and I could clearly feel the lag pressure, I think at all 4 pressure points, especially 2, 3 and 4. Also, with the shaft acting like a spring, I feel this wonderful cushy resistance, not like pushing a stiff iron rod, say.
Next, I left the table leg and performed the basic motion with the same driver--2 feet back and a 2 feet forward (to both-arms-straight), doing it with as much thrust as possible. Again, the shaft bends, especially at first. I also get the "cushy feel" and that feel coincides with the lag pressure build-up. Then at both-arms-straight, because the club slows down, I can see the shaft un-bend and "kick" the other way. Even with that short a motion, I couldn't tell exactly when the shaft begins bending the other way (kicking back), or what state it's in at impact, but I am TRYING to keep it bent backward, or trying to maintain the lag pressure. Now, instead of pushing against the table leg (infinite inertia) I'm pushing against the inertia of the club, especially the clubhead. As long as I can maintain the pressure, the club will ACCELERATE. But, eventually it's going to stop so it has to decelerate, beginning at some point. Again, it's a mental image, but I'm TRYING to have that happen after impact.
I also noticed that if my motion was 2 feet back, then back down, forward and out, then just let me and the club keep going to a "natural" stop (almost a full follow-through), the shaft seemed to be bent backward at impact.