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Zach Johnson validates Tom Tomasello's Instruction

Zach Johnson's win on Sunday at the John Deere Classic Validates Tom Tomasello's instruction of the Golfing Machine. Why? Zach's downstroke motion is exactly the same swinging action that Tom Tomasello taught in the Chapter Series of videos on this site. The action is using both Forearms to pull the club down with the lower body responding (hips leading the shoulders)....reference section 6-B-2-0 on page 72 in the 7th edition of The Golfing Machine (muscles of both forearms). Also reference golf instructor Mike Bender's new book "Build the Swing of a Lifetime" Zach Johnson's instructor and Zach's caddie on the bag on Sunday. It's interesting that Mike Bender studied the golf swing with Mac O'Grady another Homer Kelley student.

DG

The action is using both Forearms to pull the club down with the lower body following....reference section 6-B-2-0 on page 72 in the 7th edition of The Golfing Machine (muscles of both forearms).

"With the lower body following."

I have to look this up about the lower body following I always thought the lower body leads if it does anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry1967 (Post 93051)

How about we change following to responding!!!

Feel better.

DG

"Responding"... I still cannot agree.

Zach's pivot may be responding to intent, the intent does not appear to be a wrist throw. Additionally, Zach uses alot of lower body action. Looks like he swings that board a long way.

Bumpy

Startdown vs. Downstroke (Two different Animals)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 93158)

"Responding"... I still cannot agree.

The Left hip responds to the action of the right forearm like Magic!!!

TSP left arm Swing

This is simply a Turned Shoulder Plane, left arm Swing in which the right shoulder drives PP#3 through impact, and even though the right forearm is perfectly on the sweetspot plane at impact at 0:37, and on the DS, his shoulder and hip rotation start simultaneously, it is not a right arm swing. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVuNqHLgacI

What we see versus what we feel... It looks like a simple turned shoulder plane with thrust downplane by the shoulders. Mike Bender says he is firing his arms at beginning of downswing.... Video doesn't tell the whole truth...

I believe you have that wrong about the basic plane. Zach's swinging on an Elbow basic plane not a turned shoulder basic plane. Trust me, the downstroke is the same as Tomasello's arm action, just watch Tommy's Chapter Series video on Swinging and Hitting. I believe it's last chapter series video. Now Tommy is swinging on s turned shoulder plane with a Straight Line delivery path. Zach's swinging on an Angled delivery path.

DG

Quote:

Originally Posted by broberts5 (Post 93178)

Just what arm muscles is he firing at the Top? His right shoulder and hands start moving simultaneously from the Top, and the right elbow retains it's bend, so it isn't the right triceps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93179)

I put a straight edge through the right elbow and the ball, and lo and behold, the sweet spot traveled right down that line! You are right DG. :salut:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93181)

Just what arm muscles is he firing at the Top? His right shoulder and hands start moving simultaneously from the Top, and the right elbow retains it's bend, so it isn't the right triceps.

Forearm muscles!!! See 6-B-2-0, Homer got it right. Also see 1-F, the Right Forearm is always driving!!!

DG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93183)

Forearm muscles!!! See 6-B-2-0, Homer got it right. Also see 1-F, the Right Forearm is always driving!!!

DG

The Right Forearm is being driven by the Pivot in Swinging and by the right triceps in Hitting. The Right Forearm can make a slapping motion with its muscles using the right elbow as the pivot point, but doing this from the Top would only throw away the left wrist cock, which ZJ is clearly not doing.

Ya he ain't on the tsp but and the action is provably the same as tomasello but what's motivating it is only known to the player we won't know

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93189)

The triceps straighten the elbow for both swinging and hitting, the forearms are used to TRIGGER that action.

DG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93362)

The triceps straighten the elbow for both swinging and hitting, the forearms are used to TRIGGER that action.

DG

You surely know better DG. The right elbow is thrown straight by the flywheel in Swinging.
Why do you think component 4 for Swinging in 12-0 is Triple Barrel 4/2/3?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93068)

How about we change following to responding!!!

Feel better.

DG

Hey DG How are ya?

Actuation of #2 is not normally done at Top but we've talked about that before I think. The intention to actuate , "Delivery Line uncocking prep" , is formed at Top per 12-3 Section 6 #21. Intentions and actual actuation , firing , triggering being separated by time given any Delay to Release of #2. Leaving the , in the ideal , the Right Shoulder to bring the Power Package Down Plane in Startdown , "the period of Shoulder Acceleration" . 8-7- Section 7.

Thanks for sharing all the great TT material. Here's a small token of my appreciation in reference to "responsive movements"

From "The Golf Swing, The Ernest Jones Method" by Daryn Hammond 1920.

Quote:

Chapter X. Recapitulatory

General

The Responsive Movements

It is one of the misfortunes of golf that the correct playing of the shot should make a pretty picture; the observer - and the player as well - is apt to become too much interested in the pretty picture, that is, in effect, and too little interested in the causes of which that effect is merely an expression. In no other game does the statuesque position occur so regularly. In golf it appears at the finish of almost every properly played shot, from the shortest of short approaches to the longest of long drives. The club, the hands and arms, the shoulders, the legs and feet, are all seen in a more or less stereotyped relationship, all in repose, the repose that is the logical result of well-directed effort, the repose that invites the camera or even the sculptor's chisel. There is nothing comparable with this characteristic in, for example, baseball, football, cricket, tennis, or billiards. In those games the vitally interesting thing is the action by which the result is achieved, not the appearance of the performer when the action is being, or has been, made. And this fact doubtless explains to some extent why in golf the action of the average player looks, and indeed is, so much less spontaneous than in other games.

The footballer kicking a football does not know, or think, or care, where his right knee or his left hip will be at any given moment in the operation of kicking. His mind sends a direction to his feet, and his feet obey if he is a good footballer, or disobey if he is a bad footballer. The billiard player is not at all concerned with the position in which he will be found at the finish of his stroke. He is not at any moment in the game an inspiring subject for the photographer, much less for the sculptor. He consequently gets on with the work. The mind directs the fingers and the fingers direct the cue. The elbows, arms, shoulders, body and legs also move; they move, however, not on their own account, but in response to the impetus in the cue set up by the action of the fingers. The person performing Indian club exercises never thinks for one moment about the position of his elbows or his knees. What he does think about all the time is the movement of the club, and the action of the hands and fingers by means of which that movement is produced. He is pre-eminently a creature of action, not a hero of repose, and he is not in the least degree interested in what his appearance may be at the end of any movement or sequence of movements that he may make.

The footballer's mind is directed to the one point of contact - toe and ball; the Indian club performer's mind is directed to the one point of contact - fingers and club; the billiard player's mind is directed to the two points of contact, cue and ball, fingers and cue. And so the golfer's mind should be directed to the two points of contact, club and ball, hands and club.

The golfer's object is to gain command of a golf club just in the same way as the Indian club performer's object is to gain command of an Indian club. True, it is not necessary for the golfer when making his shot to twist his club about as though it were an Indian club. At the same time, the golfer should be able to twist it about in that manner. He should be able to swing the club about in his hands and fingers, freely and fluently in any direction. The pianist learns all sorts of exercises that never come actually into the performance of any piece of pianoforte music. He does so in order to gain command of his fingers. And in the same way, the golfer will do well to make any and every movement with his club that will increase his skill in manipulating it, increase his sense of intimacy with it, his feeling of power over it. When he is swinging the club about in this casual manner, whether with right hand or left hand, or with both hands, he will observe - if it occurs to him to do so - that though he thinks only of communicating movement to the club by means of his hands and fingers, the forearms, the elbow joints, the shoulders, and probably the legs and feet, are also in action - responsive action; responsive in the sense that they move without any specific direction from the mind, but on the impulse created by the action of the hands and fingers in the club. If an attempt were made to swing the club about by using the hands and fingers to the exclusion of the action of other members of the body, that is to say, without the naturally responsive movements, the result would not only be stilted and powerless; it would produce an appreciable strain on the muscles involved.

This is exactly the stilted and powerless movement or series of movements that is known as mistiming the shot. Of the various parts of the body that should act in harmony, some parts act either out of harmony, or not at all. It is good to start the club-head by hand and finger action, but it is useless to do this unless forearms and upper arms and shoulders and hips and legs and feet and head are allowed to follow. Everything must "give" when the call comes - except the grip of the thumb and forefinger of each hand; for with an adequate grip there, control or the club can always be preserved without retarding any responsive movement whatsoever. The responsive movements are just as vital to the proper execution of the shot as the initiatory movements.

Regards
Ob

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93368)

You surely know better DG. The right elbow is thrown straight by the flywheel in Swinging.
Why do you think component 4 for Swinging in 12-0 is Triple Barrel 4/2/3?

Ya dg the forearms do not actuate the club in swinging I don't in Naw where u came up with that but ahhh wrong

Quote:

VELOCITY POWER

6-B-2-0 THE SECOND POWER ACCUMULATOR When the Left Wrist is Cocked (in excess of the selected Clubshaft-Left Hand Angle (6-B-3) in the Address Fix positions) it forms the Second Power Accumulator. It’s the true Velocity Accumulator because of the shortness of its travel time (during a Maximum Delay Release). Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, the muscles of both forearms, any – or all – are available to actuate this Assembly. Its “in-line” condition is FULL EXTENSION as determined by the Accumulator #3 requirements – if any. It is the “Downward” (Angle of Attack) Motion per 2-C-0 and 2-N-1.

Actuation is the triggering of #2 IMO, like a tipping point if you will for the Swinger. Non Auto Release Trigger. You'll notice Homer doesn't list wrist muscles ,active hand unbending etc . A Left Wrist Throw is not done by the wrists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 93384)

Ya dg the forearms do not actuate the club in swinging I don't in Naw where u came up with that but ahhh wrong

A highly regarded TGM GSED!!!

DG

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 93369)

And Thank god for Homer Kelley who taught us we can start the club down in various ways. Right Forearm, Left Forearm, Right and Left Forearm, Left Wrist, and Right Shoulder.

DG

Full Power per Homer and Tomasello

You'll have to ask yourself why does Homer write in the 7th edition that full power is generated through the left and right arms per....the paper trail is 12-5-3, 10-3-D, 10-3-A,B,C. Then go to Tomasello's Power video from the chapter series.

DG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93391)

A few?'s DG.

1. 10-3-C + 10-3-K = Full power? Not too worried about it, sometimes I use it when tight or nervy and all I need is a reasonable shot.

2. 10-3-D ".....Either arm....",

Left or right but not both, correct?

3. I do experience "elbow" pain in the brachialis when I pull with the right arm. Would you suspect grip("swing wreckers"), alignment, tension or flexibility?

I beat alot of balls and this pain is a legitimate concern. At this point I am not convinced it is inherent to the "correct" procedure.

Bumpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93397)

3. I do experience "elbow" pain in the brachialis when I pull with the right arm. Would you suspect grip, alignment, tension or flexibility?

Bumpy

I suspect "pulling with a pitch right elbow" . STOP-IT. it will become permanent and U will not be able to streighten your elbow.

Just my experience.

HB

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93398)

I suspect "pulling with a pitch right elbow" . STOP-IT. it will become permanent and U will not be able to streighten your elbow.

Just my experience.

HB

Your suspicions are correct. My question now remains is it inherently structuraly insufficient or is there a flaw in my procedure?

So....

10-3-D(right arm) always = Picket Fence

Bumpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93399)

Your suspicions are correct. My question now remains is it inherently structuraly insufficient or is there a flaw in my procedure?

So....

10-3-D(right arm) always = Picket Fence

Bumpy

I would suspect a flaw in your procedure/execution. I have swung the club with my right arm for years and no pain from the swinging procedure I learned from Tom Tomasello. I swing daily with weighted clubs per Harvey Penick's recommendation too.

As Tom Tomasello has said, all big hitters use their right arm.

DG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93408)

Does your right elbow replace your left shouler?

Bumpy

Read 6th edition, 7-19, last paragraph, ....So, if there is a twinge in the elbow..

HB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93408)

Yes, but so does everyone else. There are three ways - Swing or drive the right forearm through impact, or use the Right Arm Swing with pitch elbow and risk the "twinge" that HB points out in 7-19. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93413)

I have been swinging with the right arm for over 15 years never felt a twinge in my right elbow.

Just read the new Mike Bender book Zach is using his arms in the downswing just like Tomasello per the Tomasello videos on this site. Interesting to note Bender is a Mac O'Grady disciple. Who did Mac O'Grady and Tom Tomasello spend a lot of time studying the Golfing Machine with....HK (Homer Kelley the man himself).

DG

using his arms in the downswing just like Tomasello per the Tomasello videos on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93415)

"using his arms in the downswing just like Tomasello per the Tomasello videos on this site."

DG, in my most effective rounds of golf, I felt like I was "a machine actively concentrating on maintaining my systems of arms and hands." :read:

Yesterday, shooting a 76, and earlier shooting a 77 and an 80, I felt like I wheeled my machine in a a direction and "did the checklist!" So yesterday, I was- ..."center of green- marker one foot in front of ball- Ball position- Angle Hinge Impact rehearsal through the ball-Impact Fix-left wrist cock-right arm drive. "

Near the green- "pitch, chip or putt?" Then, the rehearsal of Impact through the Ball and the checklist was done.

I felt like a was a small canon checking aim, elevation and amount of gunpowder! Does this constitute what you said in the quote above? :)

ICT

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93412)

Read 6th edition, 7-19, last paragraph, ....So, if there is a twinge in the elbow..

HB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93415)

I have been swinging with the right arm for over 15 years never felt a twinge in my right elbow.

DG

This can mean only one of two things:

1. Homer was wrong.

2. DG is not a right arm swinger.

Bumpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93417)

This can mean only one of two things:

1. Homer was wrong.

2. DG is not a right arm swinger.

Bumpy

3. Homer's explanation is incomplete.

4. DG is swinging with Full Power as described in the 7th edition of the golfing machine. I'm using the whipcracking technique taught by Tom Tomasello mentioned in the Golfing Machine per section 9-2 by Homer Kelley. Crack that whip!!! Devo. Circa early 80's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93422)

That is twice you have omitted to classify yourself as a right arm swinger or not. I will do as I suspect you do, continue to crack that whip as a left arm swinger who knows how to use his right arm. The mystery fades away.

Bumpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93423)

One section that Tomasello didn't agree with Homer on is that last paragraph of 7-19 with Twinge comment. I agree.

Just go to the Chapter Series on "Power" and you'll see how I use my right arm to accelerate the club.

On my full swing what I think about is three things, withdrawl the right hip, extensor action and keeping the hands on the straight delivery path.

Right Hip/Right Arm Backstroke, Right Arm/Left Hip Downstroke. On the downstroke, I just let the left hip respond to the action of the right arm (magic of the right forearm per 7-3), the hips lead the shoulders. The hips react with a sliding motion, then a rotational motion for release and follow through.

DG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93417)

This can mean only one of two things:

1. Homer was wrong.

2. DG is not a right arm swinger.

Bumpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 93432)

I really enjoy the Tomasello videos despite what 'appears' to be some descrepencies. 'Appears' to me that Tom was teaching a left arm swing with a wrist throw. Yoda 'appears' to have some genuine respect and/or affection for Tomasello so I don't wish to pursue this matter any further.

Bumpy

Video Interpretation Error

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93439)

Sorry, but Tomasello was not teaching a 10-20-E Wrist Throw in the videos on this site. I have video of Tommy teaching that particular trigger and it's definitely not what's on these videos.

DG

Originally Posted by HungryBear
Read 6th edition, 7-19, last paragraph, ....So, if there is a twinge in the elbow..

HB

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
I have been swinging with the right arm for over 15 years never felt a twinge in my right elbow.

DG

That's because your right elbow does not replace your left shoulder.

Additionally, Yoda has stated that Tom was not teaching a right arm swing.

Let's review,

1. Homer is wrong.
2. Lynn is wrong.
3. Tom's interpretations of Homer and the machine are correct.
4. DG's interpretation of Tomasello, Homer and the machine are all correct.
5. DG is unable to demonstrate a valid argument.

Let's face it, Zach is a poster child for pissing away 'arm power'.

Bumpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93457)

Thanks for the complements.

I don't get the pissing away arm power comment??? I believe it should be the opposite.

Trust me I've done enough arguing between the original TGM website and this site to last a lifetime. No need to argue, the facts are out and golfers like Zach are winning tournaments at the highest level. Just checkout Mike Bender's book at your local Barnes and Noble. Remember Mac O'Grady is Mike's mentor!!! Ya no that Homer Kelley student! Oh BTW, per the April 1991 edition of Golf Illustrated, Golfer Jodie Mudd mentions two instructors who helped him keep his tour card and make him a complete player (Players Championship and Tour Championship winner), who were those two instructors....hmmmmm. Tom Tomasello and Mac O'Grady. Interesting!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93457)

On the Chapter Series of videos Tommy is not teaching a right arm swing, but checkout his Golf Illustrated interview and the letter series of videos. If it's a 2/3/4 accumulator swing and Tommy is using his forearms to accelerate the club, why would it be considered a 2/3/4 swing?