Flat left, bent right
 

Gotta keep Joe happy :)

Ok, i have a prob visualising how lag and the bent right works for the swinger. The hitter has it easier for mine due to his squarer clubface thru the swing. The swinger usually has the turn as well as the left wristcock. He also often leaves his release to CF. With the above swing how does he concentrate on lag and drag thru impact when it is automatic? Having to roll thru impact makes it hard for me to concentrate on keeping the handle ahead. Maybe it is the late uncocking on a karate chop plane that we need concetrate on?

JohnT,

The exact center of the clubhead mass is the sweet spot. The clubshaft rotates around that point. You can hold any club horizontally between your fingers and roll the grip between you thumb and index finger to see this. The shaft rotates around the sweetspot.

In swinging, we are essentially letting the club rotate per it's design. That means the clubface needs to be turned on the backswing, and rolled on the downswing. The rolling will happen automatically as centrifigal force begins to act on the clubhead. You don't have to try and manipulate your hands for this to happen.

In hitting and swinging, the bent right wrist through impact assures that your hands are beating the clubhead to the ball and you are keeping a flat left wrist at impact. You will learn more about the importance of the flat left wrist/bent right wrist over time. It is one of the cornerstones of golf.

Bagger

Thank you very much
 

So what you imply is that our right wrist stays bent as our left rolls. I do find keeping the right bent seemingly affects left wrist uncocking a bit but am working with a dowel to explore the possibilities. Thanks heaps for the help :)

Re: Thank you very much
 

It not only stays bent, it stays "frozen" in that position from the start of the downswing, through impact, and as far past impact as you can take it into both arms straight.

Bagger

Ok
 

but this doesn't keep the left wrist cocked?


Thanks heaps

John

Re: Ok
 

OK - Hold on and get ready for some serious fog lifting!!!

These are GREAT questions JT.

Bagger

Wow
 

thank you sincerely Bagger. My terminology will improve each day, my book arrived only days ago. I appreciate your quick responses, tho i am more than prepared to wait any amount of time for answers.

John

Yoda's video
 

When htting or swinging does Yoda vary his hinge between angled and horizontal?

Thanks rwh,

I've been meaning to get back to this question but figured someone would jump in.

JT - The right wrist doesn't cock, it bends back on itself. Go ahead and put your right arm in front of you, when you cock your wrist, you will see wrinkles in the skin below your thumb. Now instead of cocking, bend it back. You will see wrinkles across the back of your hand, but not below your thumb. Now, your results may vary depending on your anatomy, but you get the idea.

As rwh mentions, at the top of the swing you don't need to cock your right wrist. The bent right elbow acts to put the right forearm and wrist in the correct alignment at the top. Your LEFT wrist will cock.

This is PART of what is known as the "Flying Wedges" in TGM. The concept is important enough that Yoda will very likely post a thread for it in the the advanced forum.

Bagger

Ok
 

Thanks muchly to you both. That's a great fog lifter as per right elbow cocking the left wrist rwh. There's obviously no need to force the cock or exaggerate it, which is great to know. Just reread your chapter recommendation. Excellent.



Thanks Bagger, from the great posts of you guys in other sites i have picked up on the folding back of the right wrist. No fog at all now. I think it would be awesome to have a clip of the right forearm/pickup action one day, it seems to be one the the most important TGM concepts as well as the flying wedges. Thanks again guys :)

I have to disagree with the above statements that in a Swing, the straightening of the Right Arm uncocks the Left Wrist. In a pure Swing, the Law of the Flail uncocks the Left Wrist and the inactive, tension-free Right Arm, which goes along for the ride, straightens as a result.

Would it be incorrect to phrase it this way.

Backswing: As long as the right wrist bends back, it is the bending of the right elbow which creates the left wrist cock.

Downswing: It is the sequenced release of the swing, by way of centifugal force, which creates the uncocking of the left wrist.

At NO time should you be thinking "I cock here and uncock here."

Choices, choices
 

For swingers, you have a choice. As MJ says, CF will uncock the left wrist automatically. But you can intentionally uncock. The nice thing about TGM is you have choices. The main thing is the swinger sequences the downstroke so you uncock first, then roll. You can vary how and where this occurs in the downstroke.

Bagger

Switching Between Hinge Actions (Among Other Things!)
 

Yes, mb6606.

When Swinging, I use Horizontal Hinge Action (Flat Left Wrist remains Vertical to the Horizontal Plane through Impact); and when Hitting, I use Angled Hinge Action (Left Wrist remains Vertical to the Inclined Plane through Impact). In the beginning, I trained myself to execute each Hinge Action (2-G) perfectly. First without a Club; then with a Club but without a Ball; and finally, with a Ball, at first in Short Shots, and later, in Full Shots.

I was always a Swinger until I consciously learned to Hit. As a consequence, I had the Swinger's Backstroke with its Start Up Swivel and its End Top; and its Downstroke characterized by Drag Loading, Sequenced Release and Horizontal Hinge Action. When learning to Hit, I had to substitute the approriate Variations:

1. For Standard Wrist Action (with its Start Up Swivel): Angled Hinge Action (10-18-C-2).

2. For an End Top: Straight Line (10-23-A).

3. For Drag Loading: Drive Loading (10-19-A).

4. For Sequenced Release: Simultaneous Release (4-D-0).

5. For Horizontal Hinge Action: Angled Hinge Action (10-10-C).

But today, after assimilating these necessary Mechanical differences, I simply tell my Hands that, on this particular Stroke, we are going to Throw-Out (Left Side Centrifugal Force Drives). Or, on that particular Stroke, we are going to Drive-Out (Right Side Muscular Thrust Drives). Those instructions delivered, the Computer does the rest: The Stroke becomes the automatic execution of a procedure (Chapter 14) in compliance with the Basic Stroke Pattern of either 12-1-0 or 12-2-0 (as modified for the Shot at hand).

We are indeed "fearfully and wonderfully made."

How on earth does the roll happen automatically? I have yet to have this happen with me! I have to make it roll....

I am sure I could use some help here....what should I try to do to get to "automatic"?

Hinge Action for Swingers
 

300,

This is a trick question right??? I've been around the block and read your posts in other forums... :D

Horizontal hinging is the natural full roll hinge action for a swinger. To let it happen, it requires a mandatory flat left wrist into and through impact all the way into follow through (both arms straight).

In the backswing, you will turn the left hand palm to the plane, and on the downswing you will feel a left hand karate chop motion back down the plane. You will feel your left wrist uncock at your release point (when the clubhead and butt of the club switch ends), and without any effort on your part, then next thing you will feel is the the sweet spot of the clubface and the right hand paddlewheel motion rolling your left hand into impact.

Clubs are designed to roll around the sweetspot. This is sensed through the #3 pressure point and the right hand is simply executing it's paddlewheel motion as the right arm straightens. Let me emphasize here, the right hand is passive. This is all just a consequence of the right arm straightening as the club nears impact. Let it continue it's roll into the finish swivel. If you have kept your left wrist flat through all of this, you will find your left hand palm facing up as the left arm collapses into the finish.

All of this requires that there is never any thrusting or pushing of the right arm, only right arm extensor action on the left arm. The wrists stay relatively loose. Otherwise you end up fighting an angled hinge and then you will have to force the roll. The role of the right wrist is to remain bent, level, and passive. The role of the #3 pressure point on your right index finger is to aim the sweet spot at the inside quadrant of ball and sense acceleration.

One more thing while I'm on the subject. The left hand is the clubface. Monitor it's position throughout the swing.

Hope that helps, if you are still having difficulty letting it go, let us know. :D I'll bring in the big guns... 8)

Bagger

This is the hardest part of the swing, you have to learn a flat left wrist and just let the force do it for you. If you are finding yourself forcing the roll you probably have some throwaway and and a bent left wrist somewhere.

Brian got me out of this problem by teaching me to keep that left wrist flat from the takeaway all the way to the FINISH! I trained with the tac-tic to learn this.

Once i learned to trust it it wasn't a problem.

Re: Hinge Action for Swingers
 

All of this requires that there is never any thrusting or pushing of the right arm, only right arm extensor action on the left arm.


Bagger[/quote]

wouldn't this extensor action be a slight pushing or thrusting with the right arm?
i find this a little confusing. a hitter's motion is to apply pressure to the base of the left thumb, by driving or thrusting the straightening right arm into the ball. in my thinking, extensor action in swinging is this same motion, albeit with much less force.
shouldn't CF take care of keeping the left arm straight while swinging? if i apply extensor action while swinging, i'm not really allowing the right arm to just "go along for the ride" am I ?
thanks, mike.

Re: Hinge Action for Swingers
 

wouldn't this extensor action be a slight pushing or thrusting with the right arm?
i find this a little confusing. a hitter's motion is to apply pressure to the base of the left thumb, by driving or thrusting the straightening right arm into the ball. in my thinking, extensor action in swinging is this same motion, albeit with much less force.
shouldn't CF take care of keeping the left arm straight while swinging? if i apply extensor action while swinging, i'm not really allowing the right arm to just "go along for the ride" am I ?
thanks, mike.[/quote]

.................................................. .................................................. ......

This is a good topic!

yekim79 has some good questions. I'm pretty sure there was considerable discussion on this in a thread dealing with Extensor Action. I believe Mizuno Joe has a similar opinion concerning Extensor Action and Pure Swinging.

In Swinging the Right Elbow should stay inactive. I believe that Swingers are usually feeling, thinking about, or monitoring the LEFT HAND or LEFT WRIST. If a SWINGER is employing EXTENSOR ACTION in such a way as to activate the RIGHT ELBOW(6-H-O and 7-20) problems with SWINGING may occur.

I also think Bagger has made some very good posts in this section. With SWINGING, on the downswing, centrifugal force will automatically do many good things, if they are allowed to happen.

Re: Hinge Action for Swingers
 

Bagger[/quote]

bagger, you don't need to respond to my above post. i've read a post of your's under the thread title of "any swingers left- snap release" you did a very good job of answering this very question over in that thread.
i guess the answer is for me to slow the swing down enough to determine how much extensor action can or should be applied which will not overcome the CF. i guess like anything else it will get easier over time and with practise, but it's hard to apply any extensor action at all right now without feeling like i'm casting the club, and exerting a "straightening force" on the shaft. in my very amateur TGM opinion, i think part of this feeling is due to not allowing the left forearm and hand to freely roll through and past impact. i think that i still slightly try to keep the clubface square to the target line through impact, and "steer" the ball to the target. this alone probably causes, or at least gives me the feeling that i am casting early while applying any amount of extensor action.
.................or, it's quite possible that i really don't have a clue what i'm talking about :roll: :D

Re: Hinge Action for Swingers
 

Yekim,

It is confusing for sure. I've struggled with it in concept but not in practice. In fact, I've gone to the same extreme as Ted, "trying to rip the left arm out of the shoulder socket". But prefer a more gentle stretch to keep from any potential injury. Extensor action is used in hitting and swinging. It is super important and you can see Homer's emphasis in 12-3-0.
In swinging, the right arm is always trying to straighten from extensor action only, but thrust is primarily through the sequenced release of the stored power accumulators. 4,1,2,3. A swinger is concerned with the release of 4,2,3. Since we don't drive with the #1 pressure point, it goes along for the ride with it's associated extensor action pressure. From startup to follow through, the pressure doesn't increase or decrease.
I've found that 9 times out of 10, if I miss a shot or hit one weak it was because I wasn't applying enough extensor action pressure.

The surprising thing for a swinger that has been conditioned by pop instruction to keep the arms loose and relaxed, is how much rigid structure there is with extensor action. For the first few months, it feels tense as the right arm is pulling on the left throughout the swing. Over time it becomes a natural feel and not nearly as "tense".

Bagger

thanks bagger,
i may have a few more questions for you in the future about this if you don't mind, but my range is going to open back up again this week, so i'll work with things for a few weeks and get a feel for the swingers extensor action while hitting balls on some real turf for a change.
_______________________________________________

""The surprising thing for a swinger that has been conditioned by pop instruction to keep the arms loose and relaxed, is how much rigid structure there is with extensor action. For the first few months, it feels tense as the right arm is pulling on the left throughout the swing. Over time it becomes a natural feel and not nearly as "tense".
or a change. ""
______________________________________________

i liked your your statement above. it kind of hits home for me. it somewhat describes the feeling i have when concentrating on extensor action. after a few weeks, i'll see if it starts to feel more natural for me ...........thanks.