Awareness of TGM on tour?
 

Yoda and others : What is the awareness of TGM amongst PGA Tour players? Some obviously have a very good understanding having been taught by AIs such as yourself,Brian Manzella, vj, Chuck Evans, Ben Doyle, and others. Elkington is an AI. But what about the other players . How is TGM perceived on tour? Does anyone know how much Tiger knows about TGM and what his opinions are?

Elk is an AI?!??

Yuppers

I've heard Bobby Clampett and Steve Elkington are GSED's (awarded by Ben Doyle).

Stilll that does not answer hue's question. I've asked myself that same question many times. Would be interesting to hear a more thorough description of TGM status on tour.

I have a different view - which im not absolutely 100% sure but I believe Elkington is a GSEM and Homer awarded Bobby Clampet his GSED.....

Edging closer to truth....

The cached version of Ben Doyles homepage has that "Homer Kelley authorized Ben Doyle G.S.E.D. first and Bobby Clampett second."

The Golfing Machine homepage has that Elk is G.S.E.D.

Did not mean to jack your thread hue. I still hope the answer to your original question will show.

Re: Awareness of TGM on tour?
 

Yoda, vj, Brian ,others: What is your take on this question?

Three Little Words
 

I have no idea, hue, but my guess is that the awareness level is quite low; and where it does exist, the perception is one of impractical complexity. I would further say that few TOUR players have ever even seen the book, much less studied it. In sum:

Ignorance.

Indifference.

Prejudice.

We know from Brian M that David Toms was carrying a copy of the book around for several years.

Like Ben Doyle would say:

No no no noooooo.

David never carried around the book.

He carried ME around (and now 'consults' with me).

So is that where you got the concept of throwing the drunk guy off the shoulder from :lol:

....well I was pretty certain that you wrote that David Toms carried the book around with his notes in it. I must have mixed a couple of stories, sorry.
Is David Toms aware of the book and it's concepts or do you talk with him about his golfswing in other terms?

Wrong David...

DAVID LEADBETTER used to carry around the book with him at tour stops and had notes written in it. However you'll never hear him credit the machine.

If I use a TGM term with David (not lag or hinge or some other corrupted by the teaching establishment term)...

...He rolls his eyes (at best).

I use all 'everyday' Manzella-ized terms.

Thats why i luv ya! :lol:

Read somewhere that leadbetter has actually required his instructor read TGM.

Most PGA golfers of the 80's had heard of it, if only because of Clamplett.

I know John Allen May in England used to wrtie about it in his monthly articles in mag and papers.

Somewhere In Time
 

The fathers knew about The Golfing Machine. :D

The sons do not. :(

What's wrong with this picture? :?

Hint: It is not Homer Kelley's fault.

A Kiwi's Perspective
 

As far as the entire tour goes, I'd be willing to say most of the players have at least heard about the book in some form or another. Between Clampett, Doyle, O'Grady, etc, it'd be hard for them not to as least know that it's a golf instruction book.

That said, I know that Grant Waite is well aware of the book - he worked with Mac O'Grady in the mid-1990s, Ben Doyle in 2002-2003, and Chuck Evans in late 2003. When you talk to him about the golf stroke, he uses terms like Horizontal Hinging, Pressure Points, Flat Left Wrist, Straight Plane Line, Snap Release, Maximum Trigger Delay, etc. He's very attune to the terminology in the book. Unfortunately, he has moved on from the book due to it not improving his game. My take on it is that he received some faulty information and that certainly didn't help things.

He is now back in the O'Grady camp and for a number of reasons sees the book as "imcomplete" and as teaching "hook mechanics." Even so, he does apply parts of it to his game and certainly "talks the talk" when discussing it. He's as big of a "student of the game" as you will find on the tour. In my opinion, he sometimes overanalyzes things to the point where it paralyzes his game. He's so bent on hitting perfect shots that mishits will occasionally send him into a spiral for a few holes and cost him score-wise.

And when you miss the cut by a single shot and can go back and count four to five "giveaways" as he likes to call them...it's really too bad.

Re: A Kiwi's Perspective
 

Does O'Grady ever allude to the parts that in his opinion make the book incomplete ? It is all very well making comments like that but does he ever go in to detail into the specifics to back up his comments.

What I meant is that Grant also feels the book is incomplete just like O'Grady does. Grant doesn't feel that it's specific enough; O'Grady expounds on it all by introducing a lot of "precise" angles that one should meet throughout the stroke. As I understood it, there is a lot of info on axis tilt and how the clubshaft should be oriented throughout the stroke.

I don't think any tour player would argue against the three imperatives, and essentials (and many would do well to understand extensor action more fully). There is certainly a perception of it being 'too complex'. Case in point, when I recently followed Jamie Hullet at the Ultra Open I spoke with her mother who was following Jamie that day. When I mentioned TGM, she immediately said "oh, well Jamie likes to keep things simple, nothing too complex".

And therein lies the problem, and the 'art' of getting TGM out to the masses - right Brian 8)

And some might consider that 'problem' quite an opportunity......

Re: Somewhere In Time
 

Plenty. Yoda: What do you put this down to ? Somewhere along the line TGM is failing to promote it self.

I think that a big problem is that in this age of "golf tips", people are often looking for a quick fix, a magic bullet, and TGM isn't that. TGM requires a little commitment, a little work, and often a little help. But, as many on this board know, the benefits are well worth the effort.

Let me say this to Grant....

HOOKING MECHANICS?

What?

I WENT TO Ben Doyle a hooker, I haven't hit two consecutive hooks in 18 years.

He has an interesting perspective on things. As I'm sure you know, he worked with Ben for about a year, ending in mid/late 2003. He says that the component variations Ben was giving him - maximum trigger delay, horizontal hinging, snap release, pitch elbow - all caused him to hit vicious hooks. And he said that the better of a player you were, the more those "sought-after" variations would hurt your game.

I can go deeper into this if you'd like, but I'm afraid of what it will degrade into.

No Matt, you'd be wrong on that.

I know ALL ABOUT teaching PGA Tour players...I still teach one from time to time (seems like I mess him up every May, doesn't it:wink:), and have taught several over the years.

Every time the issue of TOUR players comes up in my inner circle, I am reminded of old Joesph Stopa. Ole Joe use to work with me at ProTech Golf. A golf store outside of New Orleans that was YEARS ahead of its time.

ProTech had Classic clubs for sale or would refinish or rework them for you, TOUR ISSUE clubs for the same, did any sort of complex repair as well as basic stuff (I was hired by them in January of 1982 becuase of my wood refinishing talents). We did frequency matching, were a DAVE PELZ Putting Studio, and had indoor lessons with the help of a Mitsubishi Analyzer by a young up and coming instructor named Manzella.

Anyway, Stan Stopa was the proprietor, a player of some repute, who had played in more Tour Schools than Mac O'Grady and was still playing at the time as well as working as the Head Professional at Audubon Golf Club (where he still is).

Anyhoo, Stan would come in to the store about 3:30 and look at all the work we had for him and he would say "Yikes."

Ole Joe would then say:

"You want a REPAIR SHOP, you got a REPAIR SHOP!"

I say:

"You want a Tour Player, you got a TOUR Player."

Having said all of that, maximum trigger delay, horizontal hinging, snap release, pitch elbow are components that WILL WORK ON SOME STUDENTS, just not all (of course).

He are my %'s on who can do them effectively
(I provide these nubers free of charge as a service to my TGM pals).

maximum trigger delay - 5%

horizontal hinging - 60-75%

snap release - 10-15%

pitch elbow - 25-35%

all of the above - 1-2%

I'm not wrong, I'm just the messenger.

:)

You misunderstood,

I meant you were wrong that it would degrade into something.

I love Ben with all my heart, but I teach what I teach.