MFT swing

[O.B.Left]

I don't remember

Henny, Bucket You guys are great but .....Its christmas. How 'bout sharing something.

Tell us what you would change or add to the article. Geometry? How do you rotate those hips 180 degrees or whatever? With the right hip? HOgan talked about driving the right knee but was this really his right hip driving?

O.B.


PS My two cents worth is, what the heck does a Hawaiin know about hockey slap shots? Thats like me talking about HULa dancing, OOps I have.

[Jeff]

OB Left

I actually encourage detailed posts from forum members. I am not discouraging HB and 12PB from posting a detailed post on their viewpoint(s).

However, I am very critical in my analysis of posts, and I parse every sentence in a post for its logical coherence in terms of cause-and-effect relationships. If somebody believes that a 2nd hip firing and 2nd shoulder firing in the late downswing (just prior to impact) can increase ball flight distance, then I expect them to make sure that their argument is intellectually coherent and concordant with established TGM beliefs.

GBD

You wrote-: "I am not convinced that the arm rotational velocity increase much between green diamond and blue circle (time point for max arm speed)... the arm speed trace seems to plateau at about the same time as the shoulder rotation...approximately."

I am surprised that you harbor that belief. I have always believed that one needs to release PA#4 efficiently so that the arms swing freely across the body into impact. John Jacobs in his book "Practical Golf" strongly emphazises a free flowing arm swing. The arms should not outrace the torso, but they definitely shouldn't only travel as fast as the torso rotates. The arms should surely travel faster than the upper torso in the late downswing.

Here is a photo series of Ben Hogan's swing. Note how the left arm progressively separates from the chest wall (and hands move further away from the right shoulder) during the downswing.



That's what I call an efficient release of PA#4.

Jeff.

[12 piece bucket]

Here is a photo series of Ben Hogan's swing. Note how the left arm progressively separates from the chest wall (and hands move further away from the right shoulder) during the downswing.




That's what I call an efficient release of PA#4.

Jeff.

Great pictures Jeff . . . I totally agree with your last sentence. Paying particular attention to the last 4 frames . . . the shoulders don't seem to be adding much to the mix . . . there certainly is some turning but there sure doesn't seem to be a huge amout of rotation happening. The left arm seems to be moving down the chest FAST. Looks like there are some vertical forces to and from the ground.

Do you have any pictures of "hackers" that you could put up against this? It think you'd find that the hands stay "HIGH" compared to Mr. Hogan.

Very nice pictures . . . . I think this works nicely with the basics of this MTF or MFT or MF'er swing or whatever. I'm not sure about all that 2nd firing mess but what I do believe is there is something to be said about vertical forces from/to the ground and NOT having the shoulders just pull the arms over or under plane. Seem to be some similarities to the baseball "guru" dude. They seem to be really "STRECHING OUT". Maximum extension from the feet up through the spine. Maximum extension of the spine is going to have some reverse C stuff going ala Zubak.

[Jeff]

12PB

I think that the baseball player is doing what golfers should do - release the PAs fluidly and efficiently and completely. HK's PA concept involves the arms and the whole idea is to fully release the PAs to the both arms straight position of full extension. The pivot initiates the process in a pivot-driven swing, but once the "left arm is blasted into orbit" (HK's phrase) the PAs should be allowed to release fully. A second firing of the hips and shoulders cannot (I think) add additional swing power to the releasing power accumulators (PA#4 => PA#2 => PA#3 in a swinger's action).

I think that the vertical force mainly applies to the lower body. One needs to apply a vertical force down the spine, down-and-through the pelvis, and down the entire left leg to brace the left side. A braced left leg and braced secondary axis tilt allows a golfer (and baseball player) to fully release the arms into full extension.

Jeff.

[O.B.Left]

Seem to be some similarities to the baseball "guru" dude. They seem to be really "STRECHING OUT". Maximum extension from the feet up through the spine. Maximum extension of the spine is going to have some reverse C stuff going ala Zubak.

And a sort of compression in transition maybe? A lowering of the head and a squat. Is this part of it? Or is this bobbing? Man there are a lot of great golfers who did it though. Tiger, Yoda,Moe, Hogan. Down then up.

Interesting how the baseball guy drops his checkrein right around impact. I guess it would extend his arc outwards.

Bucket, I can see how the ball player who is trying to hit the ball up high for maximum distance would need some Zubackian reverse C or tilting but what about the normal everyday mid trajectory drive? Couldnt one bend and stretch without tilting back in a reverse C? My back hurts just looking at it.


Thanks

O.B.

[Hennybogan]

And a sort of compression in transition maybe? A lowering of the head and a squat. Is this part of it? Or is this bobbing? Man there are a lot of great golfers who did it though. Tiger, Yoda,Moe, Hogan. Down then up.

Interesting how the baseball guy drops his checkrein right around impact. I guess it would extend his arc outwards.

Bucket, I can see how the ball player who is trying to hit the ball up high for maximum distance would need some Zubackian reverse C or tilting but what about the normal everyday mid trajectory drive? Couldnt one bend and stretch without tilting back in a reverse C? My back hurts just looking at it.


Thanks

O.B.

The long drive guys need to hit high like the baseball players. There are some distinctions between Zuback's move and the classic reverse C. First, Zuback's legs are straight instead of still bent and way forward. Second, his head goes back because he thrusts with his core so much not because he just hangs back. I'm not saying his move is easy on the back, but it is not the same as the 70's reverse C. I've tried it. It is very powerful, but it can lead to spraying the ball.

[O.B.Left]

The long drive guys need to hit high like the baseball players. There are some distinctions between Zuback's move and the classic reverse C. First, Zuback's legs are straight instead of still bent and way forward. Second, his head goes back because he thrusts with his core so much not because he just hangs back. I'm not saying his move is easy on the back, but it is not the same as the 70's reverse C. I've tried it. It is very powerful, but it can lead to spraying the ball.

Thanks HB

Thats a great observation that will help any readers who are going out there to try the tilted, long ball. I remember my 70's swing had a good deal of double anchor and back pain associated with it.

Im really interested in this elevation, extension thing through the shot. I notice a lot of great golfers doing it and my results have been very good with it. For me its real down then up feeling. The camera doesnt show too much head movement, however in the down direction. I like it but how do we separate this from bobbing? (assuming you subscribe to a little down before the up, maybe not)

How about the authors "twist" as in "jump and twist" the ice skaters jump analogy.

Thanks for this, very interesting
O.B.

[Hennybogan]

Thanks HB

Thats a great observation that will help any readers who are going out there to try the tilted, long ball. I remember my 70's swing had a good deal of double anchor and back pain associated with it.

Im really interested in this elevation, extension thing through the shot. I notice a lot of great golfers doing it and my results have been very good with it. For me its real down then up feeling. The camera doesnt show too much head movement, however in the down direction. I like it but how do we separate this from bobbing? (assuming you subscribe to a little down before the up, maybe not)

How about the authors "twist" as in "jump and twist" the ice skaters jump analogy.

Thanks for this, very interesting
O.B.

I like the jump and twist analogy. Tiger bobs but I never see him hit fat. I think you can do these moves without bobbing. I think you can do a nice amount of thrusting without having your head go back at the end (ie less than Zuback). Look at the knees. Bent in delivery....straight in follow through. Loading into the ground like you were trying to hit low (blow up the plane line). Then, without disturbing the power package, using your legs to get the club out of the ground.

[golfbulldog]

OB Left
GBD

You wrote-: "I am not convinced that the arm rotational velocity increase much between green diamond and blue circle (time point for max arm speed)... the arm speed trace seems to plateau at about the same time as the shoulder rotation...approximately."

I am surprised that you harbor that belief. I have always believed that one needs to release PA#4 efficiently so that the arms swing freely across the body into impact. John Jacobs in his book "Practical Golf" strongly emphazises a free flowing arm swing. The arms should not outrace the torso, but they definitely shouldn't only travel as fast as the torso rotates. The arms should surely travel faster than the upper torso in the late downswing.

Jeff.

Jeff, with reference to the paper that you quoted - the peak rotational velocity for the arm and thorax appear at approximately the same time point - green diamond and blue circle. So it is not so much my belief...rather my interpretation of that data....arm velocity is greater than thorax velocity but the peak velocity of each appears to coincide.

Seems to me that acceleration of arm is dependent on thorax in THAT swing. You can use TGM concepts to interpret this golfers data...but you can not use this golfers data to prove or disprove the validity of TGM...however expert he may be. Homer said that even the best pros do not always do it as well as they might...or something to that effect...so studying their photos to prove / disprove TGM does not work.

My interpretation of TGM is that the pivot carries an "arm swing" until release of acc 4 then the pivot moves to support alignment of the power package in accordance with plane line etc... again, not a belief - just an interpretation of the literature. Once acc 4 is released a free arm swing will have no further rotational acceleration but should maintain approx. constant velocity until release of acc. 2,3. My interpretation of the book. I ca sleep at night if its incorrect though...

[Jeff]

GBD

OK. I can understand your viewpoint.

You were simply interpreting that graph which showed that arm speed was not much greater than shoulder speed and that arm speed peaked soon after shoulder speed.

Just as cameras produce artifacts, so do the golf researchers. They confuse us with different graphs. That graph represents the view of "reality" as produced by the TPI researchers. Here is a graph produced by the Welch-Zenolink researchers, and this graph represents their view of "reality" regarding the kinetic sequence.



The blue curve represents the shoulder speed, and the green curve shows the arm speed. One can see that the arms travel much faster than the shoulders after the shoulders decelerate and that the arm speed peaks much later.

Jeff.