[quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.
[quote]
Wouldn't it be the case that TT could have taught Delayed Hip Action, AND still maintained that the action of the right forearm initiates the downswing (hip slide a response to the right forearm)? Per 7-15, hip action only deals with leading and pulling the shoulders back and down. This doesn't speak to the overall initiation of the downswing - just the hip shoulder relationship.
The hip slide certainly could lead the downswing over the hands/right forearm, but aren't you giving up precision? How do you know how much slide is enough? With all out concentration on the hands' relationship to the desired plane line (and letting the body respond), there is precision. (slide or bump the amount needed to maintain the correct hand/forearm relationship to the plane line).
[quote=SECGolf;42074][quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.
Quote:
Wouldn't it be the case that TT could have taught Delayed Hip Action, AND still maintained that the action of the right forearm initiates the downswing (hip slide a response to the right forearm)? Per 7-15, hip action only deals with leading and pulling the shoulders back and down. This doesn't speak to the overall initiation of the downswing - just the hip shoulder relationship.
The hip slide certainly could lead the downswing over the hands/right forearm, but aren't you giving up precision? How do you know how much slide is enough? With all out concentration on the hands' relationship to the desired plane line (and letting the body respond), there is precision. (slide or bump the amount needed to maintain the correct hand/forearm relationship to the plane line).
Good questions- Review the tapes and magazine article. Best to watch the stroke performed in real time ( a very nice stroke) and not the ones in slow motion demostration. Two different things. Illustion's I'm told.
A delayed Hip Action Leads the Downstroke. It doesn't pause then lead. TT used Standard Hip Turn and Action. It sounds more like what you wrote and Tom explains, Circle Hand Path Delivery using the Turning Hip to carry the Right Elbow around to release.
_________
more points:
Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball. This is Precision. Why? Because anytime you allow the hips to move the shoulders in either direction you are in Pivot control Hands. Hula Hula is an independent movement of the Hip Turn with a coordinated shoulder motion. Now the Arms, and Flying Wedges do not need the Hips to move them. They have a clear path to impact once the Hips clear out of the way. A must for Hitters. Swingers can now Drag Load with Instant Acceleration to throw ouit the club. "Clear a Lane and they will come."
Homer wrote... "Execution of a Preselected Pivot....completely uncompromised by Arm and Club Motion...shifting the weight...to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso. All motion is in a preselcted sequence and spacing." Sounds like a Pivot that is trained to set up my Hands to the ball. No Roundhouse- On Plane. Free to Swing the Hands and Monitor 1-L A/B/C - Incline Plane- the shaft, Hand Pressure Points- the clubhead and Flat Left Wrist -Clubface control.
Further down in 1-L: "and Mastery of the Pivot (Zone #1) is so esstential for good golf. see 10-19-0" Whats 10-19-0? Lag Loading- Clubhead FEEL.
All this from Hula Hula. Train A pivot. Free your Hands and Swing Them.
[quote=SECGolf;42074][quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.
Quote:
Wouldn't it be the case that TT could have taught Delayed Hip Action, AND still maintained that the action of the right forearm initiates the downswing (hip slide a response to the right forearm)? Per 7-15, hip action only deals with leading and pulling the shoulders back and down. This doesn't speak to the overall initiation of the downswing - just the hip shoulder relationship.
The hip slide certainly could lead the downswing over the hands/right forearm, but aren't you giving up precision? How do you know how much slide is enough? With all out concentration on the hands' relationship to the desired plane line (and letting the body respond), there is precision. (slide or bump the amount needed to maintain the correct hand/forearm relationship to the plane line).
SECGolf,
Well said....thanks. Standard Hip action and Delayed hip action have the same downstroke hip to shoulder relationship.
Even when Tomasello taught with standard hip action it wasn't pure standard hip action. Halfway through the backswing he instructed the student to use the right forearm to keep the hands on the straight line delivery path, if not, pure standard hip action puts the hands on a top arc and angled line for swinging.
Delayed Hip Action sequence - Right Forearm, Right Hip/Right Forearm, Left Hip
Standard Hip Action Sequence - Right Hip, Right Forearm/Right Forearm, Left Hip
I believe one reason Tommy used standard hip action or at least started the backstroke with the hips was for students who whipped the club behind them with their arms on the backswing (Off-plane).
The motion described in the Tomasello 1991 GI interview is delayed hip action executed per the Magic of the Right Forearm. Pure and Simple.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 05:50 AM.
I have no doubt that what DG learned from TT is what DG posts here. Many of TT's other students got different instruction at different times. This happens with many instructors. I cannot comment on TT other then to, like DG, refer you back to the Tapes and Interview. I do say watch the real swing and not the slo-mo. From DG’s description of Delayed Hip Action, TT or DG takes the all important hips lead on the downswing out, which makes it STANDARD on the DS. I have no problem with it- it just ain’t delayed Hip Action no matter how you paint it.
Again- This discussion is like the movie “Ground Hog Day.” Same stuff posted in 2005, etc- just different people wondering the same points to the same DG. It is hard to believe that in all the years TT taught, the three days with DG would be the only authentic ones.
I cannot answer TT questions- watch the tapes and read the interview. The standard magic answer.
Tom Tomasello, like Ben Doyle and other early friends of Homer Kelley are very important to all tgmers. Homer could not have survive without them. We have much to be thankful for.
Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not.
Three points from Lynn Blake posted a few years back: (Edited from longer posts and emphasis is mine)
1- Homer Kelley did indeed prefer the Delayed Hip Turn. Despite the popularity of the Standard Action for centuries, he saw "absolutely no reason" for the Hips to lead the Shoulders in the Backstroke.
With Delayed Hip Action, the Shoulders lead the Hips on the Backstroke and the Hips lead the Shoulders on the Downstroke.
2- Both Hitter and Swinger use Pivot Lag (Hips lead Shoulders in the Downstroke) to Load the Power Package (via the On Plane Right Shoulder Turn Thrust against Pressure Point #4). The only difference between the two is what is being Loaded and how.
3- Both Hitters and Swingers properly utilize the Pivot to overcome the Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down.
In other words, the Body Pulls the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until- pending- in anticipation- waiting for- the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.
From Homer to Yoda to Me. Delayed Hip Action via Hula Hula, loading Lag and delivery by highly educated Flying Wedges.
Obviously this could go on and on. I appreciate the discussion. I have trouble with ( or at least I question in the context of a questioning of ideas presented by Tomasello):
" if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing."
This seems to automatically associate DHA with hips leading the downswing. I don't have my book with me. But I'm pretty sure 7-15 does not say "hips lead the downswing", it says "hips lead the shoulders" (precise definition of hip action). Important distiction for me.
This definitely leaves the door open for something else to lead the downswing.
What is the wording in 10-19 - C? I'll check later.
"Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball."
Hula Hula is a subset of the pivot. It is the pivot (or part of). Can you say, " 'Part of the pivot (or action of the pivot) sets up the hands, clears the hips, and allows for a hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball' " This sounds like pivot controlled hands.
"Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not."
The hands make the pivot work in a hands controlled pivot. Maybe it is strictly the brain knowing the intent of the hands or maybe a very small action (i'm not sure). As you can tell from the rest of the golf world, humans pay attention, to and notice more the big items (hips as opposed to the slightest hand action or feel).
Obviously this could go on and on. I appreciate the discussion. I have trouble with ( or at least I question in the context of a questioning of ideas presented by Tomasello):
" if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing."
This seems to automatically associate DHA with hips leading the downswing. I don't have my book with me. But I'm pretty sure 7-15 does not say "hips lead the downswing", it says "hips lead the shoulders" (precise definition of hip action). Important distiction for me.
This definitely leaves the door open for something else to lead the downswing.
What is the wording in 10-19 - C? I'll check later.
"Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball."
Hula Hula is a subset of the pivot. It is the pivot (or part of). Can you say, " 'Part of the pivot (or action of the pivot) sets up the hands, clears the hips, and allows for a hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball' " This sounds like pivot controlled hands.
"Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not."
The hands make the pivot work in a hands controlled pivot. Maybe it is strictly the brain knowing the intent of the hands or maybe a very small action (i'm not sure). As you can tell from the rest of the golf world, humans pay attention, to and notice more the big items (hips as opposed to the slightest hand action or feel).
The Hands train the pivot to work.
If you think the Hands need to move before the pivot can function, that it needs to move a hit a switch before any part of the body can move then you fail to see the big picture.
Both Hitters and Swingers, as Homer and Yoda teach, have the Pivot pull the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.
What moves first in the pivot? The clearing action of Hula Hula- the hips. This is not pivot control hands as you think. The clearing allows nothing but unobstructed freedom for the hands to swing.
And I surely hope you lead your downswing with the shoulders and not the arms are hands unless you like to OTT. Perhaps over active clamps- the Hands are a problem. Close that door as soon as possible. Hips lead the Downswing because they lead the shoulders which lead the Hands- Its called PIVOT LAG. P-I-V-O-T L-A-G. One of three types of LAG.
10-19-C calls for "an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action so that the throw out Action can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke sequence."
What is the Downstroke sequence? Well according to Homer in 6-M-1 in starts with the "feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock, and/or Left Hand rotation. That overcoming of Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down by the pivot with start to pull your arrow from the quiver.
The Power Accumulator release always starts with #4 which is an attempt to 'blast off' off the left arm by the right shoulder thrust. Then #1, #2, and #3.
This is what Homer wrote. This is what Yoda lifted fog from. This is TGM fact.
Can you lower the Hands then pivot? Sure, much closer to a Standard- old time- hip action, 10-14-A. Maybe this is what TT taught DG. Others say they were taught something else. I really don't care. I'd much rather hear from other students of Tom's would might be slightly removed from the "awe."
BUT... allowing the hips to clear and the pivot to overcome of Clubhead Inertia at the start of the stroke is NOT Pivot control.
The Hands train the pivot to work.
If you think the Hands need to move before the pivot can function, that it needs to move a hit a switch before any part of the body can move then you fail to see the big picture.
Both Hitters and Swingers, as Homer and Yoda teach, have the Pivot pull the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.
What moves first in the pivot? The clearing action of Hula Hula- the hips. This is not pivot control hands as you think. The clearing allows nothing but unobstructed freedom for the hands to swing.
And I surely hope you lead your downswing with the shoulders and not the arms are hands unless you like to OTT. Perhaps over active clamps- the Hands are a problem. Close that door as soon as possible. Hips lead the Downswing because they lead the shoulders which lead the Hands- Its called PIVOT LAG. P-I-V-O-T L-A-G. One of three types of LAG.
10-19-C calls for "an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action so that the throw out Action can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke sequence."
What is the Downstroke sequence? Well according to Homer in 6-M-1 in starts with the "feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock, and/or Left Hand rotation. That overcoming of Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down by the pivot with start to pull your arrow from the quiver.
The Power Accumulator release always starts with #4 which is an attempt to 'blast off' off the left arm by the right shoulder thrust. Then #1, #2, and #3.
This is what Homer wrote. This is what Yoda lifted fog from. This is TGM fact.
Can you lower the Hands then pivot? Sure, much closer to a Standard- old time- hip action, 10-14-A. Maybe this is what TT taught DG. Others say they were taught something else. I really don't care. I'd much rather hear from other students of Tom's would might be slightly removed from the "awe."
BUT... allowing the hips to clear and the pivot to overcome of Clubhead Inertia at the start of the stroke is NOT Pivot control.
First of all, I'm not a big fan of the term "uncock right forearm from the top."
Drive the hands to the plane line (however slight at the start down), yes.
Certainly, the hands don't need to move before the pivot can function. But this leads to at least tempoary control by the pivot (has an effect of the hand position). Always keep hand postion (through hand control) in relation to plane line.
With concentration first on Hula Hula, and not on hands, Hula Hula will influence the hands (have control over hands - opposite of hand-controlled).
Clubhead lag - the secret of golf calls for all out concentration on the hands, at all times. Stop creating pressure with the hands and you will surely have over the top. Hips lead the soulders. Hands lead the downswing because they are able to maintain relationship to plane line, not the hips. Lag pressure enables a controlling of the direction of the clubhead (tracing the plane line).
Take over downstroke sequence - sequence that the action of the hands control (by maintaining clubhead lag pressure).
Overall, I can't buy into terminology that states "hips lead the down swing."
This is because "hips = part of the pivot" and I cannot say "part of the pivot leads (leads meaning "in charge of") the downswing." Hips accomplish work and have motion in the downswing but I can't buy into a leading role. Pros have probably played wonderful golf with the hips in the lead, but hips in the lead, to me, is not the hands controlled pivot of The Golfing Machine. Thanks for the work on the replies. I've learned a lot.
First of all, I'm not a big fan of the term "uncock right forearm from the top."
Drive the hands to the plane line (however slight at the start down), yes.
Certainly, the hands don't need to move before the pivot can function. But this leads to at least tempoary control by the pivot (has an effect of the hand position). Always keep hand postion (through hand control) in relation to plane line.
With concentration first on Hula Hula, and not on hands, Hula Hula will influence the hands (have control over hands - opposite of hand-controlled).
Clubhead lag - the secret of golf calls for all out concentration on the hands, at all times. Stop creating pressure with the hands and you will surely have over the top. Hips lead the soulders. Hands lead the downswing because they are able to maintain relationship to plane line, not the hips. Lag pressure enables a controlling of the direction of the clubhead (tracing the plane line).
Take over downstroke sequence - sequence that the action of the hands control (by maintaining clubhead lag pressure).
You miss the point about Hula Hula- the hips move without the shoulders moving. If the shoulders don’t move – How can the hands be moved by them? They can’t. HULA HULA only moves the hips - nothing else. Please get that point correct. Independent movement from shoulders. Let the Hands grip the club at this point.
I spoke of PIVIOT LAG - I didn't talk about Clubhead Lag. You load Accumulator Lag on the backstroke. Crank start the Downstroke by loading Pivot Lag – at least according to Homer Kelley. Only now can Clubhead Lag PRESSURE be obtained. You don’t order it, you don’t think it. You load it. You load that Clubhead Lag PRESSURE (different from hands ahead of clubhead alignment which most the world only sees as Lag) only by loading your Accumulators and Pivot Lag. And Lag Pressure is inert- you don’t let the hands move it. Accumulators move them to prevent throw-away
The Pivot Lag is the crank of the “gear train”, the explosion of the launching pad. It is part of Educated Hands. Educate them. Get away from a pivot control take-away (shoulder turn and standard hip action) and use a Right Forearm Take-away. Remember the Magic? The gear train sequentially drags its preceding Component. And you say this is pivot control? Homer was wrong I guess. Once the Hands are Educated- they are Clamps with sensors.
I find that many are afraid to pivot because of the Hands control the Pivot axiom fearing that they are now pivot control- baloney. If you don’t pivot, throw darts.
One last point you don't see- the hip action doesn't move the hands off the incline plane. Hula Hula doesn't create a hip/Hand relationship. I'm afraid you misunderstood the word -lead. Lead in this context only means “ahead of- or comes before.” It does not mean steer or bring in a line.
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