I think more loft will promote a better release motion. I find that a player of your caliber can benefit by increasing loft and increasing weight of the shaft. Loft at impact produces launch angle and shaft flex and weight produces spin. Try a 10.5 with a heavier shaft just to see what happens.
I tried out some drivers on the launch monitor today, specifically a heavier shaft than my 65 gram. The heaviest I could find in the store was a stiff, 77 gram UST Proforce V2, but the head only had 9 degrees of loft. As expected my launch angle wasn't very good - 9.7 degrees, but my spin went down under 4000 rpm...3800 - still a little high. I have a couple questions:
Is it better to go heavier or stiffer on the shaft to get the spin down? What are the dangers of going heavier? I've also hit a friend's V2 x-stiff (same head), and I liked the way both the stiff and x felt.
Jeff, I remember you were hitting an 11 or 11.5 degree driver at the swamp last January. Are you still using that driver? I know 10.5 is a pretty standard loft for off-the-shelf drivers; is there a "favorite" or suggested loft that you find works well and encourages a good release with many golfers whom you fit?
I tried out some drivers on the launch monitor today, specifically a heavier shaft than my 65 gram. The heaviest I could find in the store was a stiff, 77 gram UST Proforce V2, but the head only had 9 degrees of loft. As expected my launch angle wasn't very good - 9.7 degrees, but my spin went down under 4000 rpm...3800 - still a little high. I have a couple questions:
Is it better to go heavier or stiffer on the shaft to get the spin down? What are the dangers of going heavier? I've also hit a friend's V2 x-stiff (same head), and I liked the way both the stiff and x felt.
Jeff, I remember you were hitting an 11 or 11.5 degree driver at the swamp last January. Are you still using that driver? I know 10.5 is a pretty standard loft for off-the-shelf drivers; is there a "favorite" or suggested loft that you find works well and encourages a good release with many golfers whom you fit?
Thanks!
Yes I am still using my Henry-Griffitts 460 11.5 loft driver. In fact I used it all year and had the best year of my life, especially off the tee.
Unfortunately it is almost impossible to compare driver lofts because:
1. There are no standards - some company's lofts are not accurate.
2. Effective loft - closed face drivers increase the effective loft. A 10 degree driver that is 2 degrees closed is actually 12 degrees for straight ballflight. Open face does the opposite.
3. COG - center of gravity varies from club to club.
The only way to test is to get fit by a reputable fitter and then try it on the golf course. Also be careful with launch monitors because I have seen radar based systems come up with really high spin numbers compared to camera based units. Outdoors with your eye is still a great test. Find an area that you have a forced carry and see which one flys the farthest. Then see how they roll. Have a friend help with this. Don't use Bucket because he can't see through those pop bottles on his eyes.
You also want to see a boring type of flight. You do not want the wind to affect it.
As far as a "favorite" loft that promotes a good release I would say it depends on the strength and speed of the player as well as what I want them to work on. I spent 4 days in Naples, Fl training some teachers about fitting and everyone who came to me was over 60 years old and not not overly strong. Some of them had good swings but were strugling to hit a driver. They all had lofts and flexes similar to mine. I know this is a hard pill for many people to swallow but everyone of these people hit the ball farther, straighter, and yes LOWER when I gave a 16 or 19 degree driver (yes, HG is the only company to offer these lofts. Why? Because they work). Every one of these players also maintained stronger balance and better hinging because of the added loft.
Loft depends on your release motion as well. There is still much debate about catching the driver before, at, or after lowpoint. I have seen success in all 3 areas. Catching the ball too much on the downstroke will produce too much spin, too much on the upstroke, too little spin. I may not like Bubba Watson's motion but I am not going to change it...or teach it.
This is a long answer but basically I do not like to use stereotypes. I would say that I use 13.5 and 16 degrees the most in my teaching and fitting the average player because bad swings provide the correct feedback. I would also say that if I am between lofts I would typically fit them into a higher loft with a heavier or stiffer shaft. I do not think there is a preference between heavier or stiffer being better, that is a feel issue for the player.
If the average player needs to produce 13-15 degrees of launch angle for max distance, how can 8-10.5 degrees do this? Bucket, you may need to take your shoes and socks off for this one.
The only way to test is to get fit by a reputable fitter and then try it on the golf course. Also be careful with launch monitors because I have seen radar based systems come up with really high spin numbers compared to camera based units. Outdoors with your eye is still a great test.
Speaking of 'testing' . . .
I asked Larry Nelson one time how a good player could know if he was ready for the PGA TOUR:
"First," said he, "can you beat everybody in your state?"
Yes I am still using my Henry-Griffitts 460 11.5 loft driver. In fact I used it all year and had the best year of my life, especially off the tee.
Unfortunately it is almost impossible to compare driver lofts because:
1. There are no standards - some company's lofts are not accurate.
2. Effective loft - closed face drivers increase the effective loft. A 10 degree driver that is 2 degrees closed is actually 12 degrees for straight ballflight. Open face does the opposite.
3. COG - center of gravity varies from club to club.
The only way to test is to get fit by a reputable fitter and then try it on the golf course. Also be careful with launch monitors because I have seen radar based systems come up with really high spin numbers compared to camera based units. Outdoors with your eye is still a great test. Find an area that you have a forced carry and see which one flys the farthest. Then see how they roll. Have a friend help with this. Don't use Bucket because he can't see through those pop bottles on his eyes.
You also want to see a boring type of flight. You do not want the wind to affect it.
As far as a "favorite" loft that promotes a good release I would say it depends on the strength and speed of the player as well as what I want them to work on. I spent 4 days in Naples, Fl training some teachers about fitting and everyone who came to me was over 60 years old and not not overly strong. Some of them had good swings but were strugling to hit a driver. They all had lofts and flexes similar to mine. I know this is a hard pill for many people to swallow but everyone of these people hit the ball farther, straighter, and yes LOWER when I gave a 16 or 19 degree driver (yes, HG is the only company to offer these lofts. Why? Because they work). Every one of these players also maintained stronger balance and better hinging because of the added loft.
Loft depends on your release motion as well. There is still much debate about catching the driver before, at, or after lowpoint. I have seen success in all 3 areas. Catching the ball too much on the downstroke will produce too much spin, too much on the upstroke, too little spin. I may not like Bubba Watson's motion but I am not going to change it...or teach it.
This is a long answer but basically I do not like to use stereotypes. I would say that I use 13.5 and 16 degrees the most in my teaching and fitting the average player because bad swings provide the correct feedback. I would also say that if I am between lofts I would typically fit them into a higher loft with a heavier or stiffer shaft. I do not think there is a preference between heavier or stiffer being better, that is a feel issue for the player.
If the average player needs to produce 13-15 degrees of launch angle for max distance, how can 8-10.5 degrees do this? Bucket, you may need to take your shoes and socks off for this one.
Thanks, Jeff. Informative answer as usual. As expected, I'll need to find and try several of these combinations to see what's best. So...do you guys want to re-shoot that fitting video?!
I spent an hour with a popular local club fitter and had some interesting results.
To start, I'm pretty spoiled after seeing that HG cart and the ability to try different heads and shafts quickly and easily. This was also a good reminder as to how good TGM-based instruction is when compared to the traditional golf terminology and approach to instruction.
I have a history of an over-the-top move in my swing. I've lessened it this past year but anytime I come off a break from golf, it's usually a problem. Although not terrible, today wasn't much different. We tried several shafts, but when he gave me a regular flex shaft it immediately helped my swing path be less out to in by several degrees. With my swing speed, spin was a big concern we had with the regular flex. I'm going to continue working on my swing and visit him again in a month or two, but I'm curious what are some of the reasons the shaft flex would improve my plane? Am I just loading and retaining the lag better?
Since you have found the best with respect to your swing investigation I suggest you look for only the best in your equipment and the proper fitting to your swing.
Did you try different length shafts, shafts with different flexes in the butt area, different flexes in the center section, and different flexes in the tip area? Did he consider your actual swing speed, tempo and release when choosing a shaft? Did you see how consistant you were hitting the face of the club with respect to the shaft length? How about the weight of the shaft?
I hope the HG cart had all the combinations of the above.
Since you have found the best with respect to your swing investigation I suggest you look for only the best in your equipment and the proper fitting to your swing.
Did you try different length shafts, shafts with different flexes in the butt area, different flexes in the center section, and different flexes in the tip area? Did he consider your actual swing speed, tempo and release when choosing a shaft? Did you see how consistant you were hitting the face of the club with respect to the shaft length? How about the weight of the shaft?
I hope the HG cart had all the combinations of the above.
Good luck in your search. It can be difficult unless you have a good guide.
I only had an hour and this was an initial, free "get to know you" type service, so we were limited by time. We tried a variety of shafts, weights, etc... He was monitoring all of the items you mention above with the help of a launch monitor, outdoors where we could see actual ball flight as well. If he were to build the club today, he was going to put me in a 76 gram, regular length, tip-trimmed, r-flex shaft. Part of his service is that he will make adjustments, swap shafts, etc... free of charge as long as I own the club, which is something I was looking for. We did talk about tempo and releases and what he believed was the cause of my straighter plane with the weaker shaft. He is not a TGM guy, though, and we didn't get into any significant swing adjustments.
He is a certified class A clubmaker and is on the website you provided.
Fantastic Ben,
Looks like you did your homework when you were looking for a clubmaker. It sounds like you are in good hands.
I would suggest that you ask your clubmaker if he has a copy of Wishon's booklet entitled: "12 Myths That Could Wreck Your Golf Game" that he would let you read. This has a lot of non-biased information that the club buyer should know before making his final decision.
I hope you are able to share your experience in choosing your new club. I'm confident your clubmaker will do it right and it could be an eye opener to those forum members who rely on the big box store.
Again thanks and good luck on your search for the perfect club.
Originally Posted by bambam
I only had an hour and this was an initial, free "get to know you" type service, so we were limited by time. We tried a variety of shafts, weights, etc... He was monitoring all of the items you mention above with the help of a launch monitor, outdoors where we could see actual ball flight as well. If he were to build the club today, he was going to put me in a 76 gram, regular length, tip-trimmed, r-flex shaft. Part of his service is that he will make adjustments, swap shafts, etc... free of charge as long as I own the club, which is something I was looking for. We did talk about tempo and releases and what he believed was the cause of my straighter plane with the weaker shaft. He is not a TGM guy, though, and we didn't get into any significant swing adjustments.
He is a certified class A clubmaker and is on the website you provided.
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At what swing/ball speed would a player be concerned with too much spin? If a player needed to reduce spin but at the same time needed more loft would there be significant pay-off in ball selection and shaft tip stiffness? Would there be frequent conditions where a player with a relatively slow swing speed (less than 85) would need a tip stiff driver?
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