Plane of left wrist cock and left arm

[Jeff]

OB Left

You wrote-: "Jeff your diagrams of Appleby might seem to suggest a curving path of the hands and a shaft non aligned to the plane at times. Leadbetter came to a similar conclusion I think. But what if App's plane line was drawn to show his shifts? The hands in 3-D space might still travel in a curve but the club might be seen to remain on the plane at all times with the butt pointing at the baseline. If he is on plane, that is."

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I think that Appleby's clubshaft is always "on plane" if the peripheral end of the club always points at the baseline. However, his clubshaft is not on a single plane. It is on an near-infinite number of planes (depending on how thin you slice the planes) between the turned shoulder plane and the elbow plane during the early/mid downswing, and it is therefore continuously shifting planes. During the early downswing, the "imaginary" clubshaft plane will be steeper, and it will be less steep as the hands progressively reach waist level.

A rough idea of the degree of plane shift of the clubshaft during the downswing can be obtained by tracing the clubhead path using a spline tool.

The following composite photo of Aaron Baddeley's swing shows the splined path of the clubhead (roughly reflecting the angular-shifting of the clubshaft planes during the early/mid downswing) and the splined path of the flat left hand arc. The hand arc plane is steeper and I think that it can only conceived to be on the "same" plane as the clubshaft plane at a "somewhere" point in the mid-downswing.



Jeff.

[Mike O]

OB Left

You wrote-: "Jeff your diagrams of Appleby might seem to suggest a curving path of the hands and a shaft non aligned to the plane at times. Leadbetter came to a similar conclusion I think. But what if App's plane line was drawn to show his shifts? The hands in 3-D space might still travel in a curve but the club might be seen to remain on the plane at all times with the butt pointing at the baseline. If he is on plane, that is."

-------------------

I think that Appleby's clubshaft is always "on plane" if the peripheral end of the club always points at the baseline. However, his clubshaft is not on a single plane. It is on an near-infinite number of planes (depending on how thin you slice the planes) between the turned shoulder plane and the elbow plane during the early/mid downswing, and it is therefore continuously shifting planes. During the early downswing, the "imaginary" clubshaft plane will be steeper, and it will be less steep as the hands progressively reach waist level.


Jeff.

Jeff,
Absolutely with you on this. OB's comment is in principle the same issue that Matthew is having regarding the left wrist cocking - it's a matter of context i.e. what view or perspective you are looking at it from.

For OB the understanding needs to be that you can have a curved motion of the hands and at the same time the clubshaft can maintain a straight line relationship to a straight line. In fact if you are making plange angle shifts on the downswing as viewed from down target- not sure how the hands could move anyway but curved.

For Matthew the understanding needs to be that the left wrist can cock "in the plane of the left arm" and the shaft can still maintain a straight line relationship to a straight line- move on the inclined plane.

Regarding single plane or shifting plane- depends on what issues you are looking at- where even if one is shifting planes as happens in any full golf stroke- anaylzing issues using the single plane concept is still a valid tool for learning the relationships of some of these items. So while you may analyze an issue using a single plane - that doesn't mean that there is a single plane- it just initially limits the variables involved.

[O.B.Left]

I think that Appleby's clubshaft is always "on plane" if the peripheral end of the club always points at the baseline. However, his clubshaft is not on a single plane. It is on an near-infinite number of planes (depending on how thin you slice the planes) between the turned shoulder plane and the elbow plane during the early/mid downswing, and it is therefore continuously shifting planes. During the early downswing, the "imaginary" clubshaft plane will be steeper, and it will be less steep as the hands progressively reach waist level.
Jeff.

Jeff

Thanks. I agree with everything above accept for the word "imaginary".

To my mind a golfer 's clubshaft can and should be lying flat on a plane (turned shoulder or other) in start down. A very real and ideal thing to my mind. I also believe he should be uncocking along that plane or shifting plane. If his butt end is also pointing at the plane line, I think this to be an ideal "on plane start down". Of all the above alignments the latter, plane line, might be the most important. The hands when mapped traveling through 3D space will describe a curve when viewed from down the line, agreed. Alignment golf needs straight line relationships, hence the base line , planes etc. Compliance with curves, though real they may be, is harder to do.

But I could be totally wrong on all this. If I am it wont be the first time.

O.B.

[Jeff]

OB Left

I think that we are in general agreement on this issue.

You wrote-: "To my mind a golfer 's clubshaft can and should be lying flat on a plane (turned shoulder or other) in start down. A very real and ideal thing to my mind. I also believe he should be uncocking along that plane or shifting plane."

I agree that it is useful to think of having the clubshaft lying on a plane during start down and also during the early/mid downswing. However, the reality is that there is no single plane that it can constantly lie on if there is a shift from the turned shoulder plane (at the end-backswing) to the elbow plane (at impact). The true reality is that the clubshaft is changing planes constantly, albeit fractionally, during its downswing passage, and that's why I used the word "imaginary". "Imaginary" doesn't imply that a plane doesn't truly exist - it implies that we are guesstimating (imagining) where the plane is at every fractional moment-of-time during the downswing.

I personally don't have a problem "imagining" the clubshaft plane to be curved - and it doesn't adversely affect my conceptual ability to imagine "being "on plane". I am also aware that my hand arc movement-in-time is slightly curved as the hands move from the top of the swing to the delivery position. From my perspective, it is easier for me to think in "curves" than straight lines, because I think that the true reality is that the body, hands and clubhead always move along a curved path. However, I can also understand the concept of a straight line thrust as utilised by a hitter who applies his thrust to the club along a radial direction (like pushing on the spokes of a wagon wheel, which is stuck in the mud, in a straight line thrust diirection, to get it to start moving).

Jeff.

[12 piece bucket]

I'd say much of this discussion depends on the plane angle and the amount of #3 angle that is inherent in that particular plane. Release motions are a blend of #2 and #3 . . . Turned Shoulder Plane has more #2 bias and Elbow Plane has more #3 bias . . . I'm not sure that you can go to fully uncocked on the elbow plane WITHOUT A PLANE ANGLE SHIFT . . . which Homer said was "hazardous." I would say more hazardous the closer you get to the ball. So full lever extension on the elbow plane may not necessarily be fully uncocked.

Somebody said that Jackie Burke said that the only time you shouldn't switch planes on a direct flight from Baltimore to Miami.

[O.B.Left]

Somebody said that Jackie Burke said that the only time you shouldn't switch planes on a direct flight from Baltimore to Miami.

Bucket, that was good one.

Hope Furyk reads this he could get a laugh with it.

[O.B.Left]

Jeff

Agreed. We say much the same thing. Therefor, given my track record, it occurs to me that we could both be wrong.

It maybe doesnt matter how we perceive this issue about the plane as long as the butt ends of our clubs point at the base line. One mans "curved plane" is another mans shifting single plane, perhaps.

I really enjoyed the 1-L-18 animation. I see a single plane with an angle that changes and a constant straight line, base line. Planes and lines to help us with our alignments. No small trick of Homers to find the correct straight lines to swing along in an otherwise circular golf swing. Many have found the wrong straight line or lines. Steering for instance.

You could take a clock, with its hands unwaveringly traveling along its fixed plane face and tilt the clock from vertical to horizontal or any which way. I see the plane of the clocks face as undisturbed. No curves. I see the hands of the clock and the plane or face they travel as unchanged in terms of their relationship to each other.

Mapped in 3-D space the clock hands would reflect their journey and show curves, flips, twists or whatever. This could be of great use in some manner but I think Homers planes and lines to be better for alignment purposes. At least they are for me, so far.

O.B.