Well... after some mediocre tournament play of late, I've started to fiddle with my swing again...... for the 100th time (at least).
My problem (for many years) has been an under-plane, shallowing out of the club about 1 foot into the downswing until about 2 feet before impact when it gets "planed out" (with plenty of shaft lean). Post impact tends to mirror the downswing with a club that exists slightly above the beltline from a d-t-l view.
I used to think that my swing hadn't changed much over time, but when I pulled some video from the late 80's I noticed I was much more on plane back then. Where it digressed I don't know, but it has. I go through stretches where I don't worry much about the downswing layoff, but deep down I KNOW it has an effect on power, accuracy, and consistency.
I worked with some Haney guys many years ago and couldn't repeat what they wanted me to do very well, so I gave up on it. But now, with an understanding of the flying wedges, I've messed around some with those old tips related to getting it planed properly, and things are looking up.
Most of these things are "left-side" related. Such as needing to "feel" like I pull the butt of the club into my left hip pocket as I start down in order to get the club out and on plane rather that stuck behind me. It's almost like I rotate my FLW "down and left" as hard as I can as I start down.
I've tried for many years since discovering TGM to keep things "right sided" (right shoulder moving down plane, pp#3 tracing, etc), but none of it has helped with my shallowing problem.
The recent success I've had with these "move left" images just reinforce how tough it is to play great golf from a "too shallow" downswing. My ball flight has gone up and I have to believe my spin rate with the driver has gone down (from it's normal 3200 rpm). Pitch shots seem much easier, and I'm more in the middle of the face with all my clubs. (I've always been a low ball "spinny" type of player with lots of shaft lean and impact closer to the heel than the center of the face).
There seems to be so little advice for golfers that shallow it out too much, with everything being geared to the ott slicer. And as much as I love TGM, there is a feel vs real that even good players need to get past in order to put the information to good use. My concept of an on-plane downswing was/is sooooo off the mark..... feel-wise! Getting it on plane is so important. In my case I feel like I had to go outside the book to fix it.
I'm curious if a TGM based teacher has corrected an under-plane downswing, and how you went about it.
Comet
I am curious how you had to go "outside the book" in order to fix the problem? Over plane and under plane have the same problem, they are both off plane.
Someone once asked Chuck Cook what was new in golf instruction and he replied, "nothing. I am still teaching hookers how to slice and slicers how to hook." I have used the same philosophy many times, if someone is under plane, then I have them "feel" like they are hitting pull-fades. Sticking a dowel in the ground 6-10 feet in front of them on the target line and having them start it to the left of it with a square stance has also helped.
Ultimately you have to get the student to make a different motion than that which they are accustomed to, both from a feel and geometrical standpoint.
I am curious how you had to go "outside the book" in order to fix the problem? Over plane and under plane have the same problem, they are both off plane.
Someone once asked Chuck Cook what was new in golf instruction and he replied, "nothing. I am still teaching hookers how to slice and slicers how to hook." I have used the same philosophy many times, if someone is under plane, then I have them "feel" like they are hitting pull-fades. Sticking a dowel in the ground 6-10 feet in front of them on the target line and having them start it to the left of it with a square stance has also helped.
Ultimately you have to get the student to make a different motion than that which they are accustomed to, both from a feel and geometrical standpoint.
golfgnome,
You certainly don't need my validation, but I agree 100%. I have been under plane and way in to out for years without realizing it. Getting on a plane board and using the principles of TGM, I had no idea how much "LEFT" it feels to get the club back up the plane in follow through and finish. It's all in our little yellow book, we just need to apply it correctly.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Same issue, Matt has helped me here in Minnesota with the underplane issue and it is hard to cure. Whenever I try to put more effort in the shot, it rears its ugly head. One thing that has helped me besides the feeling that pp3 goes directly out to the ball, no drop, is making sure that the clubface does not get open. I find that when the clubface is too open, my brain directs the hands to drop inside. If you are a swinger, mid-body hands helps alot, as does making sure that the right hand maintains its position throughout the swing. Put a little grass between your left hand and right hand, try to make sure you don't lose the grass. Good luck, as Matt told me on the range, it is a tough issue to get rid of.
I am curious how you had to go "outside the book" in order to fix the problem? Over plane and under plane have the same problem, they are both off plane.
Someone once asked Chuck Cook what was new in golf instruction and he replied, "nothing. I am still teaching hookers how to slice and slicers how to hook." I have used the same philosophy many times, if someone is under plane, then I have them "feel" like they are hitting pull-fades. Sticking a dowel in the ground 6-10 feet in front of them on the target line and having them start it to the left of it with a square stance has also helped.
Ultimately you have to get the student to make a different motion than that which they are accustomed to, both from a feel and geometrical standpoint.
Gnome,
I probably mis-stated the issue regarding departure from the "geometry" of TGM. It's really a departure from the feel of the "physics". In other words, my focus seems to have to be on the left hand moving "steep and left" in an attempt to get the clubhead/shaft planed. Focusing on pp#3 and the right shoulder weren't working for me.
I agree..... off-plane is off-plane. I think I had simply slipped into relying on the book to tell me "how to fix" a bad start down. Although it IS "in the book", it's not there in a "here are a few quick tips on how to correct being under-plane" sense...... and I know better.
Homer was very clear about "feel vs real" and that is the issue in my case. I'm sure swinging on plane feels just as "wierd" for a good player who is normally under-plane as it does to the 24 hdcp who is used to being OTT.
Down and out can easily be overdone and lead to underplane. The new radar launch monitors show the club path so you can visually see it on each swing.
I will try to post a pic of PGA tour clubhead path along with the numbers. It is an eye opener.
I probably mis-stated the issue regarding departure from the "geometry" of TGM. It's really a departure from the feel of the "physics". In other words, my focus seems to have to be on the left hand moving "steep and left" in an attempt to get the clubhead/shaft planed. Focusing on pp#3 and the right shoulder weren't working for me.
I agree..... off-plane is off-plane. I think I had simply slipped into relying on the book to tell me "how to fix" a bad start down. Although it IS "in the book", it's not there in a "here are a few quick tips on how to correct being under-plane" sense...... and I know better.
Homer was very clear about "feel vs real" and that is the issue in my case. I'm sure swinging on plane feels just as "wierd" for a good player who is normally under-plane as it does to the 24 hdcp who is used to being OTT.
CG
I absolutely agree with your points. I have spent so much time over the last 6 years trying to get on plane that I now find myself changing some reliable "feels". Once again a feel based system is, as Homer stated, "a lopsided lottery".
I spent some time with Lynn a few days ago just to verify some alignments, clear some fog, and get some answers about what is "real". It only took us a few minutes to get back on track because once you understand the alignments, you are never very far off. Remember, mechanics produce feel and feel reproduces those mechanics. The mechanics never change but your feel is ever changing, especially after a long night out!
One thought that I remember from several lessons at the Faldo Institute in Orlando was that they wanted me to feel like my downswing path was on the same path as the takeaway. It can feel like you're coming over the top, particularly if you have been hitting too far from the inside.
What has helped me out of late in practicing the Golfing Machine method, is that with all the mention of straight line tracing takeaways and delivery paths, it is still quite helpfull to realize that the CLUBHEAD route is still on a semicircled path[with you at its center]......back and through.
I have one of the early editions of TGM and after many hours of attempted interpretation, I decide it was written in Sanskrit and gave up until a friend pointed me to this website. Thank you Lynn/Yoda.
. . . it is still quite helpfull to realize that the CLUBHEAD route is still on a semicircled path[with you at its center]......back and through.
When I work with PGA TOUR players, I expect the ball to fly long and true. That is why they are PGA TOUR Players.
That said . . .
They do have problems, as do you and I.
Unlike us, these guys rarely lose Lag. They know how to keep their Left Wrist Flat (Imperative #1) and relentlessly stress the Shaft (Imperative #2). As a result, they have no problem belting the Ball to the back of the range and beyond. Almost always then, their 'Swing' problem (which often includes their 'Putting' problem) lies in Direction and Plane (Imperative #3).
When I stand behind a PGA TOUR player, I am aware of his Motion (and its idiosyncrasies), but I give it only a passing glance. This guy can stress the shaft though Impact, and the ball explodes. He knows it, and I know it.
What I'm looking for is On Plane consistency:
Is the Club's Start Up Path and Release Path identical (8-4)?
Shot after shot, THAT is what I'm looking for. All too many times, the two paths are different.
Then, I ask myself "why" . . . and what must happen to reconcile the two.
When I work with PGA TOUR players, I expect the ball to fly long and true. That is why they are PGA TOUR Players.
That said . . .
They do have problems, as do you and I.
Unlike us, these guys rarely lose Lag. They know how to keep their Left Wrist Flat (Imperative #1) and relentlessly stress the Shaft (Imperative #2). As a result, they have no problem belting the Ball to the back of the range and beyond. Almost always then, their 'Swing' problem (which often includes their 'Putting' problem) lies in Direction and Plane (Imperative #3).
When I stand behind a PGA TOUR player, I am aware of his Motion (and its idiosyncrasies), but I give it only a passing glance. This guy can stress the shaft though Impact, and the ball explodes. He knows it, and I know it.
What I'm looking for is On Plane consistency:
Is the Club's Start Up Path and Release Path identical (8-4)?
Shot after shot, THAT is what I'm looking for. All too many times, the two paths are different.
Then, I ask myself "why" . . . and what must happen to reconcile the two.
That is where the magic lies.
Great inside look bossmang . . . .
Could you speak to the benefits and ball flight ramifications of the start up pant and release path being identical. I think there are many "pop" instructors that claim to know plane . . . even right books about plane that haven't a clue . . . i.e. ones that fix giant basketball players and tell them to pick it up and drop it underneath.
When I work with PGA TOUR players, I expect the ball to fly long and true. That is why they are PGA TOUR Players.
That said . . .
They do have problems, as do you and I.
Unlike us, these guys rarely lose Lag. They know how to keep their Left Wrist Flat (Imperative #1) and relentlessly stress the Shaft (Imperative #2). As a result, they have no problem belting the Ball to the back of the range and beyond. Almost always then, their 'Swing' problem (which often includes their 'Putting' problem) lies in Direction and Plane (Imperative #3).
When I stand behind a PGA TOUR player, I am aware of his Motion (and its idiosyncrasies), but I give it only a passing glance. This guy can stress the shaft though Impact, and the ball explodes. He knows it, and I know it.
What I'm looking for is On Plane consistency:
Is the Club's Start Up Path and Release Path identical (8-4)?
Shot after shot, THAT is what I'm looking for. All too many times, the two paths are different.
Then, I ask myself "why" . . . and what must happen to reconcile the two.
That is where the magic lies.
Gotta love anything that makes it simpler. That is what I see every time I watch the video of Yoda and Brian Gay working together. Great stuff!
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Hybrid Mode
