Hinge Action meets "The D-Plane"

[Yoda]

Hinge action users (I place myself in this group) can demo the different ballflight behaviour that we can create (and the ball don't lie)- is this really a different form of physics or are we just altering the D -plane alignments?

Looking for discussion - thoughts - musings - but not too many hard line warriors with an axe to grind.... thanks.

Please explain the 'D-Plane' (for the rest of us) and contrast it with TGM's Turned Shoulder Plane Angle (10-6-B) and On Plane Right Shoulder Turn (10-13-D). Your explanation, graphics and links will be appreciated. Thanks!

[12 piece bucket]

Please explain the 'D-Plane' (for the rest of us) and contrast it with TGM's Turned Shoulder Plane Angle (10-6-B) and On Plane Right Shoulder Turn (10-13-D). Your explanation, graphics and links will be appreciated. Thanks!

Boss . . . .

Here's a link to Jorgenson's book that goes into the D-plane . . .


http://books.google.com/books?id=fpLWA4TygqwC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=d-plane+jorgensen+golf&source=bl&ots=kxH9HM2z7m&sig= Q1ZQxVVVIzJ-R9CIKs2St4jB8nM&hl=en&ei=XWHlSaK3IuOLtgeI5YGvDA&sa =X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

Basically this guy is saying that generally the ball's starting direction is 80% face and 20% path and represents that with a "ray" or "plane" coming off the face. The ball curves in relation to the path vector. It took a computer nerd to figure out that the face controls the starting direction which of course Mr. Kelley figured out in the summer of 69. But I think the one thing that is somewhat different that the computer geeks have posited is that the ball is on the club for such a short amount of time that impact and separation are in essence the same . . . there by making hinge action "obsolete". Therein lies the "controversy" of the people who want to rip Mr. Kelley's science.

Here's some more potentially interesting stuff from "trackman" . .

http://trackmangolf.com/newsletter/m...ngDistance.pdf

[O.B.Left]

Thanks Bucket

Havent had a chance to read all of that yet but.....How on earth could they think Separation to be immediate? That would render Compression a constant then wouldnt it? No Impact Interval, no Hinge Action , no Compression?

I believe Hinge Action to be as old as golf itself. While Homer defined/decoded Hinge Action golfers such as Palmer and Nicklaus have touched on it in there writings in regard to chipping and pitching. Drewit or Yoda could probably add many other authors to a list..... I bet Old Tom Morris probably had an Angled Hinge cut shot.......or a low, running Horizontal bump and run shot.

OB

[O.B.Left]

Here is an excerpt from James Braid's "Advanced Golf", published in 1920.
I dont know if this counts as an early description of Hinge Action or not but it sure reminds me of the Horizontal and Vertical Hinging.

http://www.hickorygolfers.com/swings...raidmashie.htm

[Rhythm]

All you are really doing is figuring out a way to come into the ball with the clubface closed, square or open. You are not controlling that through the impact interval. Whether you have a full roll, half roll, or no roll feel again you are just figuring out a way to get to the ball with the face in a certain condition.
That being said I think hinge action is important to give people a balanced motion. As a player you can achieve certain shots with with the different feels of hinge actions. Even though you may not be actually changing the face through impact interval , the feels can help you get the clubface into different conditions coming into the ball.

[O.B.Left]

All you are really doing is figuring out a way to come into the ball with the clubface closed, square or open. You are not controlling that through the impact interval. Whether you have a full roll, half roll, or no roll feel again you are just figuring out a way to get to the ball with the face in a certain condition.
That being said I think hinge action is important to give people a balanced motion. As a player you can achieve certain shots with with the different feels of hinge actions. Even though you may not be actually changing the face through impact interval , the feels can help you get the clubface into different conditions coming into the ball.

Rhythm, assuming I understand you correctly, I believe you are discounting the effect of Layback during the Impact Interval. I can create very different ball behaviours with the clubface held perfectly square at impact on the shortest of chips. With a flat left wrist.

Horizontal Hinge Action of the left wrist creating a closing only , no layback of the Clubface Motion. Vertical creating a layback of the clubface only motion. The clubface square to the Target Line at impact. Surely the ball must react to the laying back clubface during the Impact Interval. This is not unique to golf or G.O.L.F. a hockey player for instance knows how to "roof" a shot when in tight on a goalie with a laying back of the sticks loft, dynamically, while the puck is on the stick. Well maybe not the Ottawa Senators players but certainly most of em do.

An intentional opening of the clubface at Fix and Impact is a Cut Shot procedure a totally different concept that may or may not be employed to increase the effective loft of the club and/or to expose more bounce in the sand. Here too the ball flies in a direction in accordance with the face angle .... to the right higher, shorter and with slice spin if opened up. Try this when in tight on a goalie with a gaping hole upstairs and watch it go wide right and expect a long rest on the end of the bench, or maybe even a trade to Ottawa.

[innercityteacher]

Here is an excerpt from James Braid's "Advanced Golf", published in 1920.
I dont know if this counts as an early description of Hinge Action or not but it sure reminds me of the Horizontal and Vertical Hinging.

http://www.hickorygolfers.com/swings...raidmashie.htm

Considering the turf they played on, most of those golfers had to work the ball like crazy, even on the putting green.



YBGF

[Andy R]

the computer geeks have posited is that the ball is on the club for such a short amount of time that impact and separation are in essence the same . . .

If the clubhead and face are moving in a circle and the ball stays on the clubface for any length of time, then there is an effect.

There has to be some ultra high speed ball impact footage that can help determine how much the face angle changes. Although, from our POV, the hinge action that is applied during the capture would be an important variable.

[SECGolf]

If the clubhead and face are moving in a circle and the ball stays on the clubface for any length of time, then there is an effect.

Thanks. The above is exactly what I'm thinking when I read about the mentioned subject. There is an effect, no matter, even if, say, a human mind can't comprehend such a limited timeframe (just as an example of what might be a very limited timeframe).

[golfbulldog]

. . . there by making hinge action "obsolete". Therein lies the "controversy" of the people who want to rip Mr. Kelley's science.

Bucket, thanks for the links but be sure that this thread was for discussion of how we to explain why the ball behaves differently when we use different hinges...is it real or just d-plane with a "seems as if"....it is not intended to rip Homer's work...but equally we should not fear reaching a conclusion that differs from HK.

PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE "D-PLANE" WITH ANY OTHER TGM QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS WORK (see, not just Ben Hogan and Homer who can use caps for effect!). It is Dr. T's phrase as far as i am aware...

For those who state that Hinge action is just altering the clubface at impact...hence d-plane alignments at impact... does anyone have proof that the clubface behaves differently PRE-IMPACT for horizontal hinge versus vertical hinge which we obviously feel as though they occur through impact??

ie. "the club is preparing pre-impact to get to a different destination post impact" ...as clubhead travel differs post impact for horizontal and vertical hinge actions.

AGAIN, I stress keep this is meant to be a non-patronising / non-confrontational discussion...Thanks - keep your thoughts coming.