no back in the upswing

[3Putt]

well I searched for right forearm takeaway, and yielded basically nothing, so I'm throwing in the words "right forearm takeaway" to this thread. no threads about the right forearm takeaway on tgm forum?? not good let's get these ideas right, let's talk about the RFT this is important stuff.

drop this in a google search. See if it yields anything:

"right forearm takeaway" site:www.lynnblakegolf.com

[O.B.Left]

Been a while since Ive watched it but isn't the RFT covered in the Alignment Golf Video? The old indian chiefs "how" arm salute from the westerns.


Here's where Im at with RFT for what its worth. Warning this may take a lot of words.

To understand the RFT you have to isolate the motion of the Right Arm from the motion of the Pivot. They are different , they go in different directions but they are coordinated and contribute to each others final paths. Pivot turns IN , Right Elbow fans a tad and bends UP. See MacDonald drills for independent pivot and arm motion.

The other way of seeing or isolating the movement of the Right Arm from the Pivots contribution is to go to Top without a club in your hands, drop your left arm to your side while you leave your right hand and right shoulder high. Then turn your shoulder back to where they were at Address (square). Your right hand will now be somewhere out over your target line approximately. Its motion from where it starts at address to where it ends up at Top has now been isolated from the contributions of the pivot. You have zeroed out the pivots contribution. Notice how much of the IN is gone. Leaving mainly UP. BACK the third of the three dimensions is understood by everybody.

To get from address to this position at Top the right Forearm must fan a tad (nowhere near 90 degrees interestingly) and bend up. You could fan and then bend , sequenced RFT if you will. Or fan and bend at the same time , overlapped . The first describing a reverse "L" in right arm motion , the latter more of a "/" diagonal.

The number #1 pressure point is pressure point associated with the Right Elbows lifting although the Left Hand cocking is sensed at the #2pp. The #1 is also employed for EA. Making for some simplification.

You know the MacDonald drill where he sticks the handle in his belly button and turns his right hip back? That is the Pivot contributions to the backswing. It might appear to us to be a Pivot To Hands thing but it isn't in that the Pivot does its thing while the INDEPENDENT Arms do their own unique thing. The Right Arms contribution can be seen as almost a wood hatcheting like lift over the Right Shoulder . There is surprisingly little left forearm turning in reality. Those who advocate a 90 degree turn of the left forearm in startup prior to any pivot motion ... will have to undo a good portion of that 90 degree turn as they make their way to Top.

When does the pivot turn vis a vis the right arm pickup ? I personally start the pivot just a tad before the RFT. The pivot is really just a clearing of the right hip to a pre determined position. But I believe Lynn would say he gets both Pivot (right hip clear) and RFT (diagonal pickup) going at the same time. I have this on video tape somewhere.

Employing a lagging takeaway the momentum of the swing away created by the pivot (in my opinion) is then sensed and adopted by the Hands to aid in the Pickup. The momentum of the lagging takeaway easing the amount of muscular lifting necessary. Ideally you want to there to be as little muscular lifting as possible. No high shoulders or anything like that ... try to let it swing up. What active lifting there is should give way to a sort of coasting to top. Its very difficult to go the other way with your pivot when your actively lifting . Greasy , coasting and you can go two ways while loading the Lag Pressure Point at Top. Normally the Rotated Pressure Point the Knuckle at the base of the Right Index Finger assuming your going to Drag Load. This knuckle given a proper grip and wrist condition at Top is the location of the Lag Pressure Loading. The direction in which the Pickup must travel. The destination for the swung or thrown up in the air club. Like your tossing the club up against the knuckle. The pressure points are critical in all of this. Load them incorrectly and your wrist conditions are probably compromised.


If you do the above drill with split hands you can really feel the elbow bend to pull the #1pp UP while the left hands #2 (reverse #2? the heal pad of the left hand resist , feels like as if its pushing down) while the left wrist cocks.

Hands to Pivot does not mean the Hands start the backswing! The intention is for the Hands , the Pressure Points to travel the Inclined Plane to go to its target back and through, but their path is the result of two unique forces each with their own vector. This business happens during all kinds of human movement ,you turn and grab something. The mind is on the hands and their target but the pivot contributes to the path of the hands .... without any thought to it. Im not saying to actually throw your club up over your right shoulder for instance .... the intention to do so would probably end up with you actually doing it.

Doesn't Elk have a move where he throws the club over his right shoulder in feel. Thats Divergent Vectors 2-N-1 to my mind. Independent Pivot and Arm motion. Cant do this with hankies under your arm pits which would hinder the independent pivot and arm motion.

Theres great simplification to be had with this as in the end your intentions are limited to "clear the right hip and RFT". The hands actual swing path is resultant of the two vectors. Divergent Vectors. Thats all you need to do to get to top , on plane and with good wrist conditions .... assuming your loading the pressure points accordingly. Got to train the pressure points. Only then will the Hands have control over the Pivot and can thereby be said to have been "educated".

Nothings really as big as it first seems in the golf swing. The RFT can be thought to be about, what 2' high or so in terms of actual muscular lifting. Weird but simplifying. The whole dang swing isn't what it first seems to be. Got to strip it down.

There's more , much more but thats the gist of it . Any notes or thoughts from anyone?

Maybe Lynn will come in and fix a few points ...

[innercityteacher]

Been a while since Ive watched it but isn't the RFT covered in the Alignment Golf Video? The old indian chiefs "how" arm salute from the westerns.


Here's where Im at with RFT for what its worth. Warning this may take a lot of words.

To understand the RFT you have to isolate the motion of the Right Arm from the motion of the Pivot. They are different , they go in different directions but they are coordinated and contribute to each others final paths. Pivot turns IN , Right Elbow fans a tad and bends UP. See MacDonald drills for independent pivot and arm motion.

The other way of seeing or isolating the movement of the Right Arm from the Pivots contribution is to go to Top without a club in your hands, drop your left arm to your side while you leave your right hand and right shoulder high. Then turn your shoulder back to where they were at Address (square). Your right hand will now be somewhere out over your right foot say. Its motion from where it starts at address to where it ends up at Top has now been isolated from the contributions of the pivot. You have zeroed out the pivots contribution. Notice how much of the IN is gone. Leaving mainly UP. BACK the third of the three dimensions is understood by everybody.

To get from address to this position at Top the right Forearm must fan a tad (nowhere near 90 degrees interestingly) and bend up. You could fan and then bend , sequenced RFT if you will. Or fan and bend at the same time , overlapped . The first describing a reverse "L" in right arm motion , the latter more of a "/" diagonal.

The number #1 pressure point is pressure point associated with the Right Elbows lifting although the Left Hand cocking is sensed at the #2pp. The #1 is also employed for EA. Making for some simplification.

You know the MacDonald drill where he sticks the handle in his belly button and turns back. That is the Pivot contributions to the backswing. It sounds to us like Pivot To Hands but it isn't . Its necessary . The Right Arms contribution can be seen as almost a wood chopping like lift over the Right Shoulder . There is surprisingly little forearm turning in reality.

When does the pivot turn vis a vis the right arm pickup ? I personally start the pivot just a tad before the RFT. The pivot is really just a clearing of the right hip to a pre determined position. But I believe Lynn would say he gets both Pivot (right hip clear) and RFT (diagonal pickup) going at the same time.

Employing a lagging takeaway the momentum of the swing away created by the pivot (in my opinion) is then sensed and adopted by the Hands to aid in the Pickup. The momentum of the lagging takeaway easing the amount of muscular lifting necessary. Ideally you want to there to be as little muscular lifting as possible. No high shoulders or anything like that ... try to let it swing up. What active lifting there is should give way to a sort of coasting to top. Its very difficult to go the other way with your pivot when your actively lifting . Greasy , coasting and you can go two ways while loading the Lag Pressure Point at Top. Normally the Rotated Pressure Point the Knuckle at the base of the Right Index Finger assuming your going to Drag Load. This knuckle given a proper grip and wrist condition at Top is the location of the Lag Pressure Loading. The direction in which the Pickup must travel. The destination for the swung or thrown up in the air club. Like your tossing the club up against the knuckle. The pressure points are critical in all of this. Load them incorrectly and your wrist conditions are probably compromised.


If you do the above drill with split hands you can really feel the elbow bend to pull the #1pp UP while the left hands #2 (reverse #2? the heal pad of the left hand resist , feels like as if its pushing down) while the left wrist cocks.

Hands to Pivot does not mean the Hands start the backswing!

Doesn't Elk have a move where he throws the club over his right shoulder in feel. Thats Divergent Vectors to my mind. Independent Pivot and Arm motion. Cant do this with hankies under your arm pits.

Theres great simplification to be had with this as in the end your intentions are limited to "clear the right hip, RFT". The hands actual path is resultant of the two inputs or vectors. Thats all you need to do to get to top , on plane and with good wrist conditions .... assuming your loading the pressure points accordingly. Got to train the pressure points. Only then will the Hands have control over the Pivot and can thereby said to be "educated".

Nothings really as big as it first seems. The RFT can be thought to be about what 2' high or so maybe. Weird but simplifying. The whole dang swing isn't what it first seems to be. Got to strip it down.

There's more , much more but thats the gist of it . Any notes or thoughts from anyone?

As I bend my right elbow up, stretching my left shoulder with EA, I feel my LAG push against PP# 3 and then I maintain that pressure with a hip shift and elbow straightening DOWN to China!


ICT

[JerryG]

As I bend my right elbow up, stretching my left shoulder with EA, I feel my LAG push against PP# 3 and then I maintain that pressure with a hip shift and elbow straightening DOWN to China!


ICT

City, there should be "Like" button here. I can identify with what you just stated here. That pull of the left shoulder and left rib cage is a reminder of just how powerful EA is.

[whip]

DEAR OB LEFT if i may suggest some changes to your ideas on Right forearm pickup/takeaway

Although the pivot turns and seemingly provides the inward motion, it is the Right Forearm's job to lift the hands and clubhead ON PLANE, the pivot simply clears the way to allow this to happen easier and loads up any necessary pivot power. for the full swing, you will turn with it. when you are using a non pivot stroke the forearm must still lift the club and hands up on plane. The forearm, right tricep and #3 pp will transport the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor action.

depending on the hinge action, loading action and basic stroke, the forearm will have varying degrees of fanning, for a swinger you will feel more than a tad of fanning, it is instant fanning and lifting, the hands turned on plane, per the swingers standard wrist action the #3 pp senses the gyroscope rotation immediately, it's pure fanning for the swinger. To ensure rhythm, the piston tracing and fanning must be dialed in for your particular pattern. the swinger has got a lot of fanning to do!

Sorry to be blunt, but the indian's "how" (not sure that's PC these days..) Ain't cuttin' it, there is more to it than just mimicking an indian, or cranking a lawnmower, it's all about your basic stroke being on the plane, whether it's push punch or pitch, for the swinger most likely pitch. The underhand pitch motion gives you a good feel for the proper fanning back and through to ensure rhythm.

personally i would forget about the lagging clubhead takeaway because, the motion here must be precise and upwards, not haphazardly dragging along the ground shut trying to feel a change in direction, forget about momentum in the startup, we want extensor, we want to be on plane with proper fanning and rhythm, and we want a swinging or hitting action.

forget about the divergent vectors, lift the club ON PLANE, instead of trying to mix and match vectors varying amounts to accommodate the plane.

Once again, FORGET ABOUT THE BACK(whole point of this thread), with extensor the natural structure of the arms will provide all the back you will ever need without actually going back at any point in the swing, from startup maintain extensor and lift the club UP AND IN immediately FORGET ABOUT THE BACK to top.

Width means maintaining the triangle (left arm radius) with extensor action.

It does not mean extending the triangle with extensor action.

Many who try for width, or 'low and slow' end up as you have described - incorrectly extending the triangle via the shoulder joint.

The macdonald drills are great but the right foream takeaway requires more precision than this, FORGET ABOUT GREAT SIMPLIFICATION for all of this, because it isn't simple. The right forearm takeaway is a precise motion based on your selected components that must have rhythm and be on plane. the plane is the boss and your loading, wrist action and hinge action are your bosses too. The only simplification is referencing your selected components and PRACTICING them on plane, as he says in 4-D-0 CONSTRUCT AN INCLINED PLANE.
Attachment 2847

FORGET SIMPLE, FORGET BACK, FORGET DIVERGENT VECTORS, FORGET LAGGING CLUBHEAD TAKEAWAY, MACDONALD DRILLS, ELK VIDEOS ETC.

THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3PP, THINK LIFTING THE RIGHT FOREARM TO COCK THE LEFT WRIST, THINK FANNING, THINK ON PLANE, UP AND IN, WITH THE SELECTED WRIST ACTION, BASIC STROKE, HINGE ACTION AND LOADING ACTION. when this motion swings or carries the clubhead and hands to the top you will uncover the magic of the right forearm, and your downstroke blackouts will be fewer and farther between.

when working through basic and acquired motion this is your best chance to really work on the right forearm takeaway and you will learn it is not such a simple thing until you have mastered the proper motion and then you can wake up out of bed and lift the club up and in on plane with extensor in a deliberate and precise manner with action

[O.B.Left]

I'm glad you responded in the way you did whip. I don't have time at present to address your points but will in a few days. My opinion on the matter is based on common human movement. Reaching for something specifically .


I think we agree on on plane hand travel I didn't mean to imply otherwise . That is the intention given a desire for on plane hands that is.

[innercityteacher]

I'm glad you responded in the way you did whip. I don't have time at present to address your points but will in a few days. My opinion on the matter is based on common human movement. Reaching for something specifically .


I think we agree on on plane hand travel I didn't mean to imply otherwise . That is the intention given a desire for on plane hands that is.

It just seems as if the RFT allows for all possible downstrokes. From the RFT, I can pause and "spin" down twirling the right hand down plane with right knee firing the hip, I can Hit to Both Arms Straight aiming at the inside quadrant, or I can freeze the RFT and Pivot down through the ball and Base Line of the Plane. All three strokes hold the intended line it seems with slight differences.

The Pivot stroke penetrates, the Hit produces a very high soft landing ball, and the "spin" produces a very high draw.

ICT

[O.B.Left]

DEAR OB LEFT if i may suggest some changes to your ideas on Right forearm pickup/takeaway

Please do . Im all for learning something new. Wouldn't be here otherwise.

Although the pivot turns and seemingly provides the inward motion, it is the Right Forearm's job to lift the hands and clubhead ON PLANE, the pivot simply clears the way to allow this to happen easier and loads up any necessary pivot power. for the full swing, you will turn with it. when you are using a non pivot stroke the forearm must still lift the club and hands up on plane. The forearm, right tricep and #3 pp will transport the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor action.

In general I think we're saying much the same thing but coming at it from different angles so to speak. The #3pp , the hands do travel up the plane . In feel and in real and most importantly in terms of our intentions. That is our intention of we RFT'ers. No exaggerated awareness of shoulder turning nor any intellectual or philosophical need to try to unite the motion of the Hands and the Pivot along one course or path. They are not travelling the same path to top. They go their own ways but meet up .... on the Turned Shoulder Plane (ideally to my mind for simplicity in Startdown but thats another story) at Top.


Ive bolded some of your words for clarity. Id say its much more than "seemingly" the pivot does provide In given a Pivot stroke.

Three Dimensional Takeaway (BACKWARDS , IN AND UP) like Three Dimensional Impact (FORWARD , DOWN and OUT) is necessitated given any inclination to the Inclined Plane . Backwards everybody sees, gets . Up is best done with the Right Forearm (Elbow bending) Magic in my opinion. No heavy lifting with the shoulders or left arm which is poorly positioned on the other side of the body to do any lifting. Try swinging slowly with just the left arm on the club to see this. The Pivot , golfs basic rotational force, can provide much if not all of the In for strokes in which there is a pivot. For strokes in which the Shoulder Turn is truly zeroed the Right Forearm must provide the Up and In as you say .

depending on the hinge action, loading action and basic stroke, the forearm will have varying degrees of fanning, for a swinger you will feel more than a tad of fanning, it is instant fanning and lifting, the hands turned on plane, per the swingers standard wrist action the #3 pp senses the gyroscope rotation immediately, it's pure fanning for the swinger. To ensure rhythm, the piston tracing and fanning must be dialed in for your particular pattern. the swinger has got a lot of fanning to do!

Wouldn't pure right arm fanning (no bending) mean you hand no Up? Good for Single Horizontal only. What provides the Up to insure on plane motion as in Dual Horizontal the Machine.

Sorry to be blunt, but the indian's "how" (not sure that's PC these days..) Ain't cuttin' it, there is more to it than just mimicking an indian, or cranking a lawnmower, it's all about your basic stroke being on the plane, whether it's push punch or pitch, for the swinger most likely pitch. The underhand pitch motion gives you a good feel for the proper fanning back and through to ensure rhythm.

Ya I was trying to think of another way of putting that.. an oath like right arm motion? Thats why added "in the old western movies". No offence to native americans intended.

Totally agree on it aint just one right arm motion. The how thing holds for full pivot strokes only. The right arm motion when seen in isolation (with pivot removed) changes as the pivots contribution increases or decreases. People may not see this at first and then when they do it will probably seem needlessly complex but .... we do it all day long in our daily motions. The concern for this seemingly complex mixture of unique Pivot and Arm motions will disappear when one sees the common goal that makes this ever changing business automatic ... The intention to send the hand to its target. In golf its Up the inclined plane to its position at Top. Assuming you choose to Trace you could say it includes tracing the plane line too in startup.

personally i would forget about the lagging clubhead takeaway because, the motion here must be precise and upwards, not haphazardly dragging along the ground shut trying to feel a change in direction, forget about momentum in the startup, we want extensor, we want to be on plane with proper fanning and rhythm, and we want a swinging or hitting action.

A lagging takeaway is optional but I wouldn't discount its effectiveness. Bobby Jones, Nelson , Hogan and surprisingly Nicklaus all employed it to varying visual apparent degrees.

The True Swinger , one for whom CF alone squares the Clubface given his relaxed absolutely tension free Wrists would to my mind employ a Lagging Takeaway. Hmm wonder if Carry Back and True Swinging are mutually exclusive. I think so. Cant carry back if you the shaft is a string.

[QUTOE]
forget about the divergent vectors, lift the club ON PLANE, instead of trying to mix and match vectors varying amounts to accommodate the plane.

[quote]

Some lucky folks they don't need to think about the Divergent Vectors and Id say in the end after training with them in ideally they disappear in terms of our attention. Its sort of a" hey look at this and then forget it deal". But for the golfer who's exaggerated Shoulder Turn consciousness takes him forever under plane on the way back or the for the guy who over swivels going back , or the guy who has trouble getting his club on plane at Top , or for the guy who is just trying to figure out what the right arm actually has to do for the shot at hand ... the Divergent Vectors are the course of study.

Once again, FORGET ABOUT THE BACK(whole point of this thread), with extensor the natural structure of the arms will provide all the back you will ever need without actually going back at any point in the swing, from startup maintain extensor and lift the club UP AND IN immediately FORGET ABOUT THE BACK to top.

Do mean forget about Back as a product of Arm Motion? That Id agree with to the extent that most guys over do it . Theres got to be some Back in their, coming from something somewhere. Do mean the Pivot provides the Back?

The macdonald drills are great but the right foream takeaway requires more precision than this, FORGET ABOUT GREAT SIMPLIFICATION for all of this, because it isn't simple. The right forearm takeaway is a precise motion based on your selected components that must have rhythm and be on plane. the plane is the boss and your loading, wrist action and hinge action are your bosses too. The only simplification is referencing your selected components and PRACTICING them on plane, as he says in 4-D-0 CONSTRUCT AN INCLINED PLANE.
Attachment 2847

FORGET SIMPLE, FORGET BACK, FORGET DIVERGENT VECTORS, FORGET LAGGING CLUBHEAD TAKEAWAY, MACDONALD DRILLS, ELK VIDEOS ETC.

THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3PP, THINK LIFTING THE RIGHT FOREARM TO COCK THE LEFT WRIST, THINK FANNING, THINK ON PLANE, UP AND IN, WITH THE SELECTED WRIST ACTION, BASIC STROKE, HINGE ACTION AND LOADING ACTION. when this motion swings or carries the clubhead and hands to the top you will uncover the magic of the right forearm, and your downstroke blackouts will be fewer and farther between.

when working through basic and acquired motion this is your best chance to really work on the right forearm takeaway and you will learn it is not such a simple thing until you have mastered the proper motion and then you can wake up out of bed and lift the club up and in on plane with extensor in a deliberate and precise manner with action

I agree with everything you say after "THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3.... " And believe that for most golfers they should think about all you have said to forget ... You're just lucky to have not suffered like most when learning this game. If you talked to most pros about Divergent Vectors they'd look at you with a "man your over thinking this thing" look. But that doesn't mean its not the truth on the matter . So Id say look at if you need to and most of us do need to .......then when you mastered you Backswing let it sink into the background by forgetting about it.

Im way older than you Whip. I was a 3 cap when I was 16 thats a long time ago now. I'm trying to get it back to the plus side of things again this year and asked Lynn a few weeks ago what I should work on to get there.. His reply " MacDonald drills and the computer". He knows my swing , we've done a lot of work on plane of the left wrist cock, Wrist conditions, independent Arm and Pivot motion (human movement 101) and freeing up my swingers flail (no hold off unless I want it) . I benefitted from thinking about this stuff profoundly. Im approaching the forget it stage and am thrilled about it.

Although the right arm motion of MacDonald drill number 5 ( Mambo #5 ) is not on plane if you added drill 11's pivot it would be. That is the point ... independent arm and pivot motion. They are very different motions but they combine to produce the on plane right hand travel .. that ideally is your intention your focus. You don't focus on the different motions or try to pickup the club straight over your right shoulder like in the Elk drill . When you reach for the glass on the right shoulder high shelf your intention is to send the hand to the glass! You don't think about sending it a few feet short of the glass! This is maybe something Elk knows . But the drill still stands the arm does not contribute 100% of the hands path for pivot strokes.

Uh I don't want to speak ill of any GSED's but the intention to Wrist Throw down the Incline Plane is the correct intention in Release but some have said to "throw it straight down into the ground". That aint quite right. Its the downswings version of the above discussion. Intentions and arm motions when seen in isolation are not to be confused.

Im writing quickly hope I made some sense and love your swing in that video. Like i said its the sort of thing where we're sort of ending up in the same place but describing our different takes on the way to get there maybe.

[whip]

[quote=O.B.Left;90562]Please do . Im all for learning something new. Wouldn't be here otherwise.



In general I think we're saying much the same thing but coming at it from different angles so to speak. The #3pp , the hands do travel up the plane . In feel and in real and most importantly in terms of our intentions. That is our intention of we RFT'ers. No exaggerated awareness of shoulder turning nor any intellectual or philosophical need to try to unite the motion of the Hands and the Pivot along one course or path. They are not travelling the same path to top. They go their own ways but meet up .... on the Turned Shoulder Plane (ideally to my mind for simplicity in Startdown but thats another story) at Top.


Ive bolded some of your words for clarity. Id say its much more than "seemingly" the pivot does provide In given a Pivot stroke.

Three Dimensional Takeaway (BACKWARDS , IN AND UP) like Three Dimensional Impact (FORWARD , DOWN and OUT) is necessitated given any inclination to the Inclined Plane . Backwards everybody sees, gets . Up is best done with the Right Forearm (Elbow bending) Magic in my opinion. No heavy lifting with the shoulders or left arm which is poorly positioned on the other side of the body to do any lifting. Try swinging slowly with just the left arm on the club to see this. The Pivot , golfs basic rotational force, can provide much if not all of the In for strokes in which there is a pivot. For strokes in which the Shoulder Turn is truly zeroed the Right Forearm must provide the Up and In as you say .




Wouldn't pure right arm fanning (no bending) mean you hand no Up? Good for Single Horizontal only. What provides the Up to insure on plane motion as in Dual Horizontal the Machine.



Ya I was trying to think of another way of putting that.. an oath like right arm motion? Thats why added "in the old western movies". No offence to native americans intended.

Totally agree on it aint just one right arm motion. The how thing holds for full pivot strokes only. The right arm motion when seen in isolation (with pivot removed) changes as the pivots contribution increases or decreases. People may not see this at first and then when they do it will probably seem needlessly complex but .... we do it all day long in our daily motions. The concern for this seemingly complex mixture of unique Pivot and Arm motions will disappear when one sees the common goal that makes this ever changing business automatic ... The intention to send the hand to its target. In golf its Up the inclined plane to its position at Top. Assuming you choose to Trace you could say it includes tracing the plane line too in startup.




A lagging takeaway is optional but I wouldn't discount its effectiveness. Bobby Jones, Nelson , Hogan and surprisingly Nicklaus all employed it to varying visual apparent degrees.

The True Swinger , one for whom CF alone squares the Clubface given his relaxed absolutely tension free Wrists would to my mind employ a Lagging Takeaway. Hmm wonder if Carry Back and True Swinging are mutually exclusive. I think so. Cant carry back if you the shaft is a string.

[QUTOE]
forget about the divergent vectors, lift the club ON PLANE, instead of trying to mix and match vectors varying amounts to accommodate the plane.

Some lucky folks they don't need to think about the Divergent Vectors and Id say in the end after training with them in ideally they disappear in terms of our attention. Its sort of a" hey look at this and then forget it deal". But for the golfer who's exaggerated Shoulder Turn consciousness takes him forever under plane on the way back or the for the guy who over swivels going back , or the guy who has trouble getting his club on plane at Top , or for the guy who is just trying to figure out what the right arm actually has to do for the shot at hand ... the Divergent Vectors are the course of study.



Do mean forget about Back as a product of Arm Motion? That Id agree with to the extent that most guys over do it . Theres got to be some Back in their, coming from something somewhere. Do mean the Pivot provides the Back?



I agree with everything you say after "THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3.... " And believe that for most golfers they should think about all you have said to forget ... You're just lucky to have not suffered like most when learning this game. If you talked to most pros about Divergent Vectors they'd look at you with a "man your over thinking this thing" look. But that doesn't mean its not the truth on the matter . So Id say look at if you need to and most of us do need to .......then when you mastered you Backswing let it sink into the background by forgetting about it.

Im way older than you Whip. I was a 3 cap when I was 16 thats a long time ago now. I'm trying to get it back to the plus side of things again this year and asked Lynn a few weeks ago what I should work on to get there.. His reply " MacDonald drills and the computer". He knows my swing , we've done a lot of work on plane of the left wrist cock, Wrist conditions, independent Arm and Pivot motion (human movement 101) and freeing up my swingers flail (no hold off unless I want it) . I benefitted from thinking about this stuff profoundly. Im approaching the forget it stage and am thrilled about it.

Although the right arm motion of MacDonald drill number 5 ( Mambo #5 ) is not on plane if you added drill 11's pivot it would be. That is the point ... independent arm and pivot motion. They are very different motions but they combine to produce the on plane right hand travel .. that ideally is your intention your focus. You don't focus on the different motions or try to pickup the club straight over your right shoulder like in the Elk drill . When you reach for the glass on the right shoulder high shelf your intention is to send the hand to the glass! You don't think about sending it a few feet short of the glass! This is maybe something Elk knows . But the drill still stands the arm does not contribute 100% of the hands path for pivot strokes.

Uh I don't want to speak ill of any GSED's but the intention to Wrist Throw down the Incline Plane is the correct intention in Release but some have said to "throw it straight down into the ground". That aint quite right. Its the downswings version of the above discussion. Intentions and arm motions when seen in isolation are not to be confused.

Im writing quickly hope I made some sense and love your swing in that video. Like i said its the sort of thing where we're sort of ending up in the same place but describing our different takes on the way to get there maybe.

good points OB, great post. In regards to "what gets the club up?" I mentioned not only fanning but LIFTING and fanning both. In regards to the divergent vectors, I think is more aptly focused for the downswing, in 2-N-1(i think it was? don't have my book with me) but that passage was referring to swinging away from the hinge(the out releasing 4) and uncocking downward in the downswing, divergent vectors providing the down and out along with the axis tilt. Also wasn't trying to point out anything offensive that you had posted i just realized how it sounded after i typed it, and put the PC comment in there. In regards to the lagging clubhead takeaway i think essentially is just starting from adjusted address and swinging away, but In my initial foray into tgm i know that i attempted a lct and was shut and along the ground, and I believe is somewhat of a hazardous idea for most who ought to be getting the club UP and not low and back. I totally agree with homer's idea of reaching for the cup and your precise evaluation that it should seek the plane. the back comes from maintaining the natural length of the left arm (extensor action) as the club moves up and in along with the pivot(or not). forgive my poor posting skills, and again great post.

[whip]

City, there should be "Like" button here. I can identify with what you just stated here. That pull of the left shoulder and left rib cage is a reminder of just how powerful EA is.

Jerry G extensor stretches the left arm gently through the the right tricep. you shouldn't really feel it straining through your shoulder or your ribcage, it is a light constant pressure, it should eliminate tension and maintain the structure of the arms and their checkrein action, it is a light constant pressure maintaining the left arms length and giving indispensable control to all strokes freeing up the wrists for sharper focus on ball control.