no back in the upswing

[airair]

yes air, the bit he says about dropping the club or finding a way to separate your left arm from the shoulder at 1:15, he says "it's gonna go forward, the real problem is down" so the point of my thread here is to say it's gonna go back, the real problem here is we gotta get that club up and in on the backstroke it will go back and it will go forward, do not focus on the back and forward instead focus on the up and in and down and out.

Perhaps not so scary and confusing after all..

[whip]

Here's a little description of the right forearm pickup, right forearm takeaway for the swinger.

With a light constant pressure that is extensor action, and the right forearm in-line and on plane, the right palm should seek to rotate and lift flat to the plane immediately, the right arm bends as it fans immediately lifting and rotating the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor. This action cocks the left wrist into the backstroke, all the while the pivot is simply turning with it from the very start. It all goes together and right from the start, straight up and rotational

[airair]

Here's a little description of the right forearm pickup, right forearm takeaway for the swinger.

With a light constant pressure that is extensor action, and the right forearm in-line and on plane, the right palm should seek to rotate and lift flat to the plane immediately, the right arm bends as it fans immediately lifting and rotating the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor. This action cocks the left wrist into the backstroke, all the while the pivot is simply turning with it from the very start. It all goes together and right from the start, straight up and rotational

Does that mean that it's more of a pick up than a fanning motion?

[airair]

8-4 Start Up

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread2724.html

[whip]

in the end the plane and the loading action are the bosses, it is fanning, pure fanning right from the start and bending lifting together it must fan and lift, this rft cannot be simplified with some random motion it fans Up the plane. war chant and walrus is fine, but why try to mix two motions like rubbing your tummy and patting your head when you can simply lift the club and hands up the plane with the right forearm.

[airair]

The more input I get, the more I can check this out in the days to come. Thanks.

[O.B.Left]

I'm glad you responded in the way you did whip. I don't have time at present to address your points but will in a few days. My opinion on the matter is based on common human movement. Reaching for something specifically .


I think we agree on on plane hand travel I didn't mean to imply otherwise . That is the intention given a desire for on plane hands that is.

[innercityteacher]

I'm glad you responded in the way you did whip. I don't have time at present to address your points but will in a few days. My opinion on the matter is based on common human movement. Reaching for something specifically .


I think we agree on on plane hand travel I didn't mean to imply otherwise . That is the intention given a desire for on plane hands that is.

It just seems as if the RFT allows for all possible downstrokes. From the RFT, I can pause and "spin" down twirling the right hand down plane with right knee firing the hip, I can Hit to Both Arms Straight aiming at the inside quadrant, or I can freeze the RFT and Pivot down through the ball and Base Line of the Plane. All three strokes hold the intended line it seems with slight differences.

The Pivot stroke penetrates, the Hit produces a very high soft landing ball, and the "spin" produces a very high draw.

ICT

[O.B.Left]

Hey ICT hows things.

Totally agree RFT for me too. It makes the pivots contribution just right, neither too much , nor too little . You know just like reaching for something. We Hands to Pivot hundreds , maybe thousands of times a day. We send our hands to their target (almost subconsciously but not quite. Try reaching for something with your eyes closed and see how our awareness of the hands becomes extreme ) , with no or very little thought to the body motion required, it just happens (under normal situations... if you had to jump to reach something you'd probably give it some thought. Like an outfielder grabbing a home run off the top of the wall, he probably thought about that jump).

In golf the Pivot's , Zone 1, contribution is critically important and must correct. Homer called it Zone 1 after all. The foundation of the swing , balance etc, the creator of golfs basic rotational forces, cf as Homer put it. But the shot at hand may not require any pivot at all , or it may require a full pivot. Also similar to reaching for things. You may have to bend over and turn your shoulder or maybe its entirely an arm motion ... it depends. Either way the brain is sending the hands to their target and the body is contributing only as much as is necessary. We're wired that way . Why not make golf similar? We do so in every other sports motion I can think of... somehow we golfers get to manipulating all kinds of weird stuff in our quest to control that crazy little white ball.

[O.B.Left]

DEAR OB LEFT if i may suggest some changes to your ideas on Right forearm pickup/takeaway

Please do . Im all for learning something new. Wouldn't be here otherwise.

Although the pivot turns and seemingly provides the inward motion, it is the Right Forearm's job to lift the hands and clubhead ON PLANE, the pivot simply clears the way to allow this to happen easier and loads up any necessary pivot power. for the full swing, you will turn with it. when you are using a non pivot stroke the forearm must still lift the club and hands up on plane. The forearm, right tricep and #3 pp will transport the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor action.

In general I think we're saying much the same thing but coming at it from different angles so to speak. The #3pp , the hands do travel up the plane . In feel and in real and most importantly in terms of our intentions. That is our intention of we RFT'ers. No exaggerated awareness of shoulder turning nor any intellectual or philosophical need to try to unite the motion of the Hands and the Pivot along one course or path. They are not travelling the same path to top. They go their own ways but meet up .... on the Turned Shoulder Plane (ideally to my mind for simplicity in Startdown but thats another story) at Top.


Ive bolded some of your words for clarity. Id say its much more than "seemingly" the pivot does provide In given a Pivot stroke.

Three Dimensional Takeaway (BACKWARDS , IN AND UP) like Three Dimensional Impact (FORWARD , DOWN and OUT) is necessitated given any inclination to the Inclined Plane . Backwards everybody sees, gets . Up is best done with the Right Forearm (Elbow bending) Magic in my opinion. No heavy lifting with the shoulders or left arm which is poorly positioned on the other side of the body to do any lifting. Try swinging slowly with just the left arm on the club to see this. The Pivot , golfs basic rotational force, can provide much if not all of the In for strokes in which there is a pivot. For strokes in which the Shoulder Turn is truly zeroed the Right Forearm must provide the Up and In as you say .

depending on the hinge action, loading action and basic stroke, the forearm will have varying degrees of fanning, for a swinger you will feel more than a tad of fanning, it is instant fanning and lifting, the hands turned on plane, per the swingers standard wrist action the #3 pp senses the gyroscope rotation immediately, it's pure fanning for the swinger. To ensure rhythm, the piston tracing and fanning must be dialed in for your particular pattern. the swinger has got a lot of fanning to do!

Wouldn't pure right arm fanning (no bending) mean you hand no Up? Good for Single Horizontal only. What provides the Up to insure on plane motion as in Dual Horizontal the Machine.

Sorry to be blunt, but the indian's "how" (not sure that's PC these days..) Ain't cuttin' it, there is more to it than just mimicking an indian, or cranking a lawnmower, it's all about your basic stroke being on the plane, whether it's push punch or pitch, for the swinger most likely pitch. The underhand pitch motion gives you a good feel for the proper fanning back and through to ensure rhythm.

Ya I was trying to think of another way of putting that.. an oath like right arm motion? Thats why added "in the old western movies". No offence to native americans intended.

Totally agree on it aint just one right arm motion. The how thing holds for full pivot strokes only. The right arm motion when seen in isolation (with pivot removed) changes as the pivots contribution increases or decreases. People may not see this at first and then when they do it will probably seem needlessly complex but .... we do it all day long in our daily motions. The concern for this seemingly complex mixture of unique Pivot and Arm motions will disappear when one sees the common goal that makes this ever changing business automatic ... The intention to send the hand to its target. In golf its Up the inclined plane to its position at Top. Assuming you choose to Trace you could say it includes tracing the plane line too in startup.

personally i would forget about the lagging clubhead takeaway because, the motion here must be precise and upwards, not haphazardly dragging along the ground shut trying to feel a change in direction, forget about momentum in the startup, we want extensor, we want to be on plane with proper fanning and rhythm, and we want a swinging or hitting action.

A lagging takeaway is optional but I wouldn't discount its effectiveness. Bobby Jones, Nelson , Hogan and surprisingly Nicklaus all employed it to varying visual apparent degrees.

The True Swinger , one for whom CF alone squares the Clubface given his relaxed absolutely tension free Wrists would to my mind employ a Lagging Takeaway. Hmm wonder if Carry Back and True Swinging are mutually exclusive. I think so. Cant carry back if you the shaft is a string.

[QUTOE]
forget about the divergent vectors, lift the club ON PLANE, instead of trying to mix and match vectors varying amounts to accommodate the plane.

[quote]

Some lucky folks they don't need to think about the Divergent Vectors and Id say in the end after training with them in ideally they disappear in terms of our attention. Its sort of a" hey look at this and then forget it deal". But for the golfer who's exaggerated Shoulder Turn consciousness takes him forever under plane on the way back or the for the guy who over swivels going back , or the guy who has trouble getting his club on plane at Top , or for the guy who is just trying to figure out what the right arm actually has to do for the shot at hand ... the Divergent Vectors are the course of study.

Once again, FORGET ABOUT THE BACK(whole point of this thread), with extensor the natural structure of the arms will provide all the back you will ever need without actually going back at any point in the swing, from startup maintain extensor and lift the club UP AND IN immediately FORGET ABOUT THE BACK to top.

Do mean forget about Back as a product of Arm Motion? That Id agree with to the extent that most guys over do it . Theres got to be some Back in their, coming from something somewhere. Do mean the Pivot provides the Back?

The macdonald drills are great but the right foream takeaway requires more precision than this, FORGET ABOUT GREAT SIMPLIFICATION for all of this, because it isn't simple. The right forearm takeaway is a precise motion based on your selected components that must have rhythm and be on plane. the plane is the boss and your loading, wrist action and hinge action are your bosses too. The only simplification is referencing your selected components and PRACTICING them on plane, as he says in 4-D-0 CONSTRUCT AN INCLINED PLANE.
Attachment 2847

FORGET SIMPLE, FORGET BACK, FORGET DIVERGENT VECTORS, FORGET LAGGING CLUBHEAD TAKEAWAY, MACDONALD DRILLS, ELK VIDEOS ETC.

THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3PP, THINK LIFTING THE RIGHT FOREARM TO COCK THE LEFT WRIST, THINK FANNING, THINK ON PLANE, UP AND IN, WITH THE SELECTED WRIST ACTION, BASIC STROKE, HINGE ACTION AND LOADING ACTION. when this motion swings or carries the clubhead and hands to the top you will uncover the magic of the right forearm, and your downstroke blackouts will be fewer and farther between.

when working through basic and acquired motion this is your best chance to really work on the right forearm takeaway and you will learn it is not such a simple thing until you have mastered the proper motion and then you can wake up out of bed and lift the club up and in on plane with extensor in a deliberate and precise manner with action

I agree with everything you say after "THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3.... " And believe that for most golfers they should think about all you have said to forget ... You're just lucky to have not suffered like most when learning this game. If you talked to most pros about Divergent Vectors they'd look at you with a "man your over thinking this thing" look. But that doesn't mean its not the truth on the matter . So Id say look at if you need to and most of us do need to .......then when you mastered you Backswing let it sink into the background by forgetting about it.

Im way older than you Whip. I was a 3 cap when I was 16 thats a long time ago now. I'm trying to get it back to the plus side of things again this year and asked Lynn a few weeks ago what I should work on to get there.. His reply " MacDonald drills and the computer". He knows my swing , we've done a lot of work on plane of the left wrist cock, Wrist conditions, independent Arm and Pivot motion (human movement 101) and freeing up my swingers flail (no hold off unless I want it) . I benefitted from thinking about this stuff profoundly. Im approaching the forget it stage and am thrilled about it.

Although the right arm motion of MacDonald drill number 5 ( Mambo #5 ) is not on plane if you added drill 11's pivot it would be. That is the point ... independent arm and pivot motion. They are very different motions but they combine to produce the on plane right hand travel .. that ideally is your intention your focus. You don't focus on the different motions or try to pickup the club straight over your right shoulder like in the Elk drill . When you reach for the glass on the right shoulder high shelf your intention is to send the hand to the glass! You don't think about sending it a few feet short of the glass! This is maybe something Elk knows . But the drill still stands the arm does not contribute 100% of the hands path for pivot strokes.

Uh I don't want to speak ill of any GSED's but the intention to Wrist Throw down the Incline Plane is the correct intention in Release but some have said to "throw it straight down into the ground". That aint quite right. Its the downswings version of the above discussion. Intentions and arm motions when seen in isolation are not to be confused.

Im writing quickly hope I made some sense and love your swing in that video. Like i said its the sort of thing where we're sort of ending up in the same place but describing our different takes on the way to get there maybe.