...hi all, I don't have my book w/me at work, so can't reference. But something just occured to me. Should the trail (r) shoulder move on plane (on the downswing)? If yes, doesn't that mean that the (r) shoulder would move more -how to describe this- sort of, "around" the body, so to speak, instead of say, "down" towards the ground and under the plane?
What the golf world has not realised so far is that the shoulder turns one way on the backstroke and another on the downstroke.
One pro told me before: "Keep it simple, loose grip, turn back and turn through and square up at impact." I was on the verge of telling him that if it were true, the average handicap should be 5 because that is what everyone is trying to do.
Per 10-13-A, the standard shoulder turn, this is a dual application of the Flat Backstroke (as flat as possible) and On Plane Downstroke Shoulder Turn.
The proper downstroke shoulder motion is facilitated by a hip slide which tilts the axis of the shoulders. Lets take a look at some references.
Per 2-L #2 "a rotating motion will pass through a given point if the axis is tilted properly..."
Per 7-14 "Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the head."...which maintains our first essential, the stationary head per 2-0-A-1.
Per 2-H "On Plane" Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis - the spine.
The above references highlight the downstroke shoulder motion as inseparable from a hip slide producing axis tilt.
Per 2-N-0 "There must be an Underhand Pitch motion and Feel. If there isn't you are "Roundhousing" - lifting the Hands (Flat Shoulder Turn) and / or the Clubhead (steering) "Off Line" during the Start Down. This includes the Butt of the Club also.
Per 2-L #2 "a rotating motion will pass through a given point if the axis is tilted properly..."
Per 7-13 "Keep that Right Shoulder not only "back" but also "down" (On Plane), or you will "run out out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway."
These references highlight the true function of the shoulders as well as the importance of it.
Finally take a look at pictures 9-1-7 to 9-1-12.
Notice how Diane's right shoulder is working "under the left". Sure is different from what we have been told to turn back and through!
These references and the pictures by Annikan will unlock the mystery that surrounds 6-M-1 (Downstroke Sequence) for many. Too many folks start off in the proper sequence UNTIL they get to the shoulders part and then they spin out (around) instead of getting the right shoulder to move downplane which makes it go Down then Out and then Forward.
An offplane shoulder motion on the downstroke results in a roundhouse per 2-N-0 and violation of the 3rd imperative, a straight plane line per 2-0-B-3.
One pro told me before: "Keep it simple, loose grip, turn back and turn through and square up at impact." I was on the verge of telling him that if it were true, the average handicap should be 5 because that is what everyone is trying to do.
Justin -- the Singapore Slinger -- is getting seriously good. Has anybody else noticed? Or is it just me?
[quote=comdpa]What the golf world has not realised so far is that the shoulder turns one way on the backstroke and another on the downstroke.
Hi Compda
Thank you for this post . So I'm not the only one... Shoulders plane (s) is a problem for me for a long time and your post give me a new light.
If I stand up in front of a mirror my soulders line is (anatomically) perpendicular to my body axis (my spine ). If I pivot in this position my shoulders plane is perpendicular to my vertical axis (my spine ) and parallel to the ground. If I bend from my hips in front of me, the shoulders plane is still perpendicular to my spine and angled with the ground. If I start to pivot in this position ,around my spine and keeping my head as still as possible the only way to have the club (and arms ) and the shoulders on the same plane is to keep the arms perpendicular to the axis (wich is not very confortable...). So the shoulders and the club (and arms ) are travelling on differents planes in the backswing. In the dowswing , if we want the right shoulder to go down to the ball , we need a steeper shoulders plane , which need to curve , or to bend , or to tilt the axis (as far as the head is still in place) Most of time it seems to me that for great players shifting and tilting allows this knew shoulders plane.
For me the downswing is more critical (maybe because the backswing pivot seems more "axial" and static), but I try to improve with the very competent help of all the fellows on this site wich is , by far , the best on the net.
Happy new year to you all , and thank you for reading
PM
...I try to improve with the very competent help of all the fellows on this site wich is , by far , the best on the net.
Thanks, Phimaynard. We do have a terrific crew here, and the site is growing by leaps and bounds. Membership has increased 80 percent in the past two months alone. I don't know what that growth rate is in annualized terms, but it is a very large number.
Thanks to all who contribute and all who choose simply to read and watch. Together, we're making it happen!
[quote=Yoda]Thanks, Phimaynard. We do have a terrific crew here, and the site is growing by leaps and bounds. Membership has increased 80 percent in the past two months alone.
This growing is the fruit of your competence and the global spirit of the site (sharing the knowledge, Thanks Compda )
One good exemple is often better than a long argument : your post about Eklington (Steve Elkington's Wonderful Little TGM Stroke) is one of the best golf lesson I have ever had . I printed it and read it almost daily . It helps me to understand how to use the "Yellow book" in the right way. I know that I have still a lot to learn, so, like everybody in this growing community, I will continue to connect everyday, for my greatest pleasure
This is a little gift for you..
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Thanks
PM
What the golf world has not realised so far is that the shoulder turns one way on the backstroke and another on the downstroke.
Hi Compda
Thank you for this post . So I'm not the only one... Shoulders plane (s) is a problem for me for a long time and your post give me a new light.
Merci...
If you were to reference again the Standard Shoulder Turn.
The backstroke would look like this - (as flat as possible)and the downstroke would look like this \ (right shoulder moves downplane)
What I have described is from a down-the-line view.
If shoulder turn on the backstroke and the downstroke "match", then (pray)...for disaster awaits...
Comdpa, finally had a free night to get in to my book, with your notes in hand. My head's spinning, quite honestly but here goes anyway.
Originally Posted by comdpa
The proper downstroke shoulder motion is facilitated by a hip slide which tilts the axis of the shoulders.
Can you point me in the (book's) direction of how much hip slide to employ?
Originally Posted by comdpa
[b]Per 2-N-0 "There must be an Underhand Pitch motion and Feel. If there isn't you are "Roundhousing"
"Underhand Pitch motion" is this what most golf teachers refer to as moving the shoulder "down the line?". That is, it feels as if the right shoulder is moving parallel to the target line? "Roundhousing". If I were to not begin with a hip slide, but simply (and incorrectly) just turn my tilted upper body towards the target--is this "roundhousing"?.
Originally Posted by comdpa
Too many folks start off in the proper sequence UNTIL they get to the shoulders part and then they spin out (around) instead of getting the right shoulder to move downplane which makes it go Down then Out and then Forward.
Okay, "Down" I get. Its the opposite of up. "Forward" I get--towards the target line. But "Out" cooks my noodle a bit. Out to which direction? Many thanks for any light you care to shed. I've sort of been waiting a few years for this site--and for folks like you who care enough to spend time fog-lifting for folks like me.
Comdpa, finally had a free night to get in to my book, with your notes in hand. My head's spinning, quite honestly but here goes anyway.
Can you point me in the (book's) direction of how much hip slide to employ?
"Underhand Pitch motion" is this what most golf teachers refer to as moving the shoulder "down the line?". That is, it feels as if the right shoulder is moving parallel to the target line? "Roundhousing". If I were to not begin with a hip slide, but simply (and incorrectly) just turn my tilted upper body towards the target--is this "roundhousing"?.
Okay, "Down" I get. Its the opposite of up. "Forward" I get--towards the target line. But "Out" cooks my noodle a bit. Out to which direction? Many thanks for any light you care to shed. I've sort of been waiting a few years for this site--and for folks like you who care enough to spend time fog-lifting for folks like me.
First off buddy,
HIP SLIDE - How much do I need?
Well, the answer is somewhere between too much and too little.
I am kidding...
Book out please...
To recap, why do we need the Hip Slide?
...for proper shoulder motion Per 2-H ""On Plane" Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis - the spine."
...to prevent roundhousing Per 10-5-0 "Round Housing in the effort to avoid Hip and Right Elbow collisions - in both directions."
Per 7-14 "...and so avoid Right Elbow and Hip interference and its "Roundhousing" Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down."
...to harness Centrifugal Force Per 2-L "Concerning #2 - a rotating motion will pass through a given point if the axis is tilted properly..."
How much to Slide?
Per 7-14 "Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head."
In summary, your slide is sufficient if it allows the hips to clear without moving the head. This is the Hula Hula Flexibility Mr Kelly speaks of.
What is Round Housing?
Roundhousing causes your shoulders to go over the downstroke plane which usually should be the Turned Shoulder Plane.
Per 7-13 "...you will "run out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway (7-14, 8-6)"
Per 6-H-C "Take all Strokes to the Both Arms Straight Position (8-11)". If you are not able to execute this, it is a sure sign that you are roundhousing.
Simple drill to ingrain an "Underhand Pitch Feel"
1) Take a golf stance against a wall.
2) Place the left hand against the wall and lock it there.
3) Do your Right Forearm Takeaway.
4) Swing the Right Arm under the left.
5) Observe that your right shoulder is automatically under the left.
Your next question...what is Down, Out and Forward?
Per 2-C-0 "Your main lines of defense are the Flat Left Wrist, Hinge Action and a Three Dimensional Downstroke - that is, DOWNward (Attack Angle) AND OUTward (Plane Angle) AND FORward (Approach Angle)..."
To understand "DOWN"...Look at a swing sequence from a face on view. From the top, notice how the hands come DOWN to Impact Hand Location.
To understand "OUT"...Look at a swing sequence from a Down The Line perspective. From the top, notice how the hands move OUT to Impact Hand Location.
To understand "FORWARD"..Look at a swing sequence from an Overhead view. From the top again, notice how the hands move FORWARD to Impact Hand Location.
I appreciate that without pictures it is hard to understand the 3-D downstroke. If Annikan could illustrate 2-C-0, it would be great!
In the dowswing , if we want the right shoulder to go down to the ball , we need a steeper shoulders plane , which need to curve , or to bend , or to tilt the axis (as far as the head is still in place) Most of time it seems to me that for great players shifting and tilting allows this knew shoulders plane. 
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(pray)...for disaster awaits...
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