Let's assume that we KNOW that there should be no SWAY of the 'pivot center.'
So, you can use the "through the head" center or the "base of the neck" center.
Which one has the BEST stroke pattern performance.
I will define this 'performance' in the following way:
A. Best able to create and sustain lag pressue
B. Best able to 'draw' a straight plane line
C. Best able to control hinge action
Got it?
Ok.
Here is my OPINION:
I think creating and sustaining lag pressue is easier with the base of the neck.
I think staying or getting 'on top' (or behind, if you prefer) of the sweetspot with your #3 pressure point—as in Horizontal Hinging—is easier with the base of the neck.
I think performing ANGLED hinge action or vertical hinge action to be easier with the "through the head" center.
If you bend you plane line too much to the left as a rule, you will find it easier to NOT bend it left with the "base of the neck" center.
If you bend the plane line to the right as a rule, , you will find it easier to NOT bend it right with the "through the head" center.
What do ya'll think?
I actually really like the points you made in this first post Brian.
Especially the bit about Horizontal/Angled Hinging.
...
OK.
I realize Homer is the man and all that.....he uh- KINDA knew his stuff.
But, I must say...
I personally like how Brian is going about all this..... I like a lot of his points and how he is explaining them. I like to hear real "why" answers.
I think anyone can just agree with Homer....and know the book....
...and you know what....for a lot of people, that COULD suffice as the be-all-end-all.....but I like to hear a little "why," personally.
And I really do think Brian is making a good argument.....it's hard to argue against Homer (is it really against him though?), but I think Brian actually has a legit debate here.
I don't really want to take sides and get yelled at over here.....so I hope someone appreciates where I'm going with this.....we can all learn from this whole discussion I think.
Just a reminder to keep this a debate and not a fight.
Last edited by birdie_man : 01-05-2006 at 02:35 PM.
6. Homer Kelley told me personally that he chose the Head because "if you move your Head you can see more under the Ball." He also said there could be problems with using 'between the shoulders' as a center, but he did not elaborate. That discussion was recorded.
Do you think that Homer would change his mind on this subject in later editions if he was still around???.
__________________
"The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you."
Do you think that Homer would change his mind on this subject in later editions if he was still around???.
The Golfing Machine® as we know it was the labor of genius for forty-two years.
The Stationary Head as the Pivot Center was a bedrock point from which that genius never varied.
So, do I think Homer Kelley would have switched to a Non-Centered Pivot over the last twenty years?
No.
In fact, he codified the Pivot Center concept in the as-yet-unpublished 7th edition as the Pivot Swing Center Tripod.
Do I think he would have embraced a different Pivot Center?
No.
Remember, his primary reference during the early years was Ben Hogan's Power Golf, the very same text from which photos have been extracted to build a case for the 'between the shoulders' Pivot Center.
Would he have changed his mind had he found evidence to the contrary?
The Golfing Machine® as we know it was the labor of genius for forty-two years.
The Stationary Head as the Pivot Center was a bedrock point from which that genius never varied.
So, do I think Homer Kelley would have switched to a Non-Centered Pivot over the last twenty years?
No.
In fact, he codified the Pivot Center concept in the as-yet-unpublished 7th edition as the Pivot Swing Center Tripod.
Do I think he would have embraced a different Pivot Center?
No.
Remember, his primary reference during the early years was Ben Hogan's Power Golf, the very same text from which photos have been extracted to build a case for the 'between the shoulders' Pivot Center.
Would he have changed his mind had he found evidence to the contrary?
Absolutely he would have.
But then again, in more than forty years...
He didn't.
Yoda~
I don't believe there has been a reference to the audios.
In an audio Mr. Kelley comments on why the head while acknowledging the neck may be more geometrically correct. He goes on to indicate it remained for him to confirm the geometrically correct conclusion.
When the Hogan photos were posted a thought was why from that period? Your comments about Power Golf are a reminder that Hogan's instructional influence did not begin with 5 Lessons in 1957.
Do you have an opinion on why a Hogan position with the shaft parallel is typically the one of comparison? For example, there is the one used here and the one on the next page of the book with the shaft beyond parallel, also illustrated in 5 Lessons, which rarely gets attention?
Finally, on swing sequence, a 1985 version with 4-iron was published in the October 1997 issue of Golf Digest. The frame at or close to the top was for some reason not from the same swing as the remaining frames.
What I should have said is that I personally would like to hear more than "This is what Homer said in The Golfing Machine."
Again....Homer IS the man.....but I would like to know more before I regard having a completely Stationary Head and a Tripod (head exactly between the feet) as something which ALL golfers must attain (even though it's not an Imparative).
I know Homer has done all these years of research...etc. etc. etc. so maybe everyone should just believe him. Maybe that's what we should do.....
.....but I dunno.....
....Brian seems to really believe in what he's saying.....and much more importantly, I believe he does have something in his argument. It is a reasonable debate IMO.
...
Lynn- do you have any reasons why you think Brian is wrong based on your OWN experience (teaching experience especially)?
I suspect you must have something.
Last edited by birdie_man : 01-05-2006 at 04:38 PM.
BTW, I think if you and Brian could both lay out exactly what you think in one plane that would greatly clarify what’s what been going on in the recent threads on this topic.
Here are a few things that we should know:
-Tripod (head directly between feet) ALWAYS?
…exceptions?:
-Stationary (no Sway) ALWAYS?
…exceptions?:
-What’s ideal? Anything?
OR…in which circumstances is WHAT ideal?
-Through neck centre viable option as part of PERMANENT procedure?
…or only to “train pivot” or w/e?
Hybrid Mode
