lee trevino's grip

[sdsurfmore]

any use for tgm? i know that in the book this grip is listed as the cut shot procedure..but what about all the time?

[birdie_man]

Lee uses it pretty well.

Dunno how the hell he does it....but he does it pretty well.

[12 piece bucket]

any use for tgm? i know that in the book this grip is listed as the cut shot procedure..but what about all the time?

I have tried to get some love on this question too. I'll give you my neophyte thoughts . . .

The Trevino grip you speak of is 10-2-D. Which is basically having the Left Palm TURNED on top of the shaft. Brian Manzella, effectively I may add, debates the degree that Lee Buck has his Left Hand Turned. I don't have any pics, but (calling Annikan Ballstriker) it would be interesting to see his grip up close.

But for this thread let us assume that he did have 10-2-D. Here's what Mr. K had to say about the 10-2-D grip . . .

10-2-D STRONG DOUBLE ACTION T/V/A Now the Right Wrist is Vertical and the Left Wrist is Turned to the top of the Clubshaft so that the Left Wristcocking motion will be on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. The #3 Pressure Point and the left thumb are also on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. Double Action – same as 10-2-C.

Very compatible with the Cut Shot procedures. Any Left Wrist Bend at Impact Fix should be maintained throughout the Stroke.

This Grip Type features maximum Wristcocking action and strong support for both Acceleration and Impact loads. The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane – no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

Ok . . .So with this grip Paddle-Wheel Motion is a MUST or you will hook it where the elephants go to die. So here is 10-10-C that Mr. K refers us to on Paddle Wheel:

10-10-C ANGLED HINGE ACTION This simultaneous “Closing and Layback” procedure holds the Flat Left Wrist vertical to the Inclined Plane (2-D, 2-G). This is identical to the Paddle-Wheel motion of the straightening Right Arm but is a superior procedure (1-F). It greatly simplifies Hitting (10-19-A). The Shoulder Turn changes the appearance of this 10-18-C Wrist Action but not its Feel (see 7-10). Its Slice tendency must be compensated per 2-J-1. The “Laying Back” action makes Ball location very critical. Study 4-D-0.

And now to chase down Mr. K's 10-18-C reference:

10-18-C SINGLE Here, the Left Wrist is Cocked but not Turned. The Action has three alternative procedures:
1. Let the Pivot bring Horizontal Hinging to a normal On Plane “Top” position.
2. Let the Pivot bring Angled Hinging to a normal On Plane “Top” postion.
3. Hold the Wrist – “Vertical” throughout for a True Single Action “Top” position.
Because there is actually NO HAND MOTION during the Stroke, the Clubhead Fix alignment remains undisturbed.

My assumption here would be that with 10-2-D may be Standard Wrist Action, with its required start-up and release Swivel are unneccessary due the fact that THE LEFT PALM IS ALREADY FACING THE INCLINED PLANE? So with 10-2-D should there just be one SLOW Hinge feel?

So basically with this grip the prefered Hinge Motion is Angled Hinging, which of course Lee Buck was the king of. He was a self-described BLOCKER of the ball. He Blocked it around the golf course in his prime. Another thing that you will notice is that Lee Buck traced the absolute straightest Plane Line. He retained the Impact conditions in his wrists DEEEEEEEP into follow through. This was pretty much manditory for him to keep the ball out of the left rough.

Lee Buck also had a strong latteral drive/shift into the ball, which also helped with maintaining the Angled Hinge motion keeping the clubface from turning over.

The questions I have on 10-2-D are the following:

1. Does this grip type eliminate a TRUE flat wrist and rather call for its anatomical substitute?

2. Does this grip type preclude Horizontal Hinging?

3. Is this really an inferior grip type since the Flying Wedge Assemblies are not directly opposed to one another?

4. Does 10-2-D require a different type of release of the #2 Accumulator? And since the Wrist Cock is in the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend, is the degree of Bend in the Right Wrist flattened in conjuction with the Left Wrist Uncocking?

5. Does this grip type lend itself to Hitting or Swinging?

Those are the questions . . .

Thanks!

Bucket

[EdZ]

The questions I have on 10-2-D are the following:

1. Does this grip type eliminate a TRUE flat wrist and rather call for its anatomical substitute?

2. Does this grip type preclude Horizontal Hinging?

3. Is this really an inferior grip type since the Flying Wedge Assemblies are not directly opposed to one another?

4. Does 10-2-D require a different type of release of the #2 Accumulator? And since the Wrist Cock is in the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend, is the degree of Bend in the Right Wrist flattened in conjuction with the Left Wrist Uncocking?

5. Does this grip type lend itself to Hitting or Swinging?

Those are the questions . . .

Thanks!

Bucket

1) IMO - no, you can still maintain a 'flat' left wrist and in fact this makes things easier - you have 'locked' wedges

2) Yes - 'if' you have maintained that 'flat' left wrist, you are limited to angled hinge, however you can use it for cut shots if you are not true 'flat'

3) absolutely not inferior IMO - I think it can be quite superior in many cases. It is perhaps one of the best ways to get people to understand the feel of great clubHEAD control, and can make a zero shift procedure much simpler (clubSHAFT control). The issue is in clubFACE control, which IMO must be shifted to the base/palm of right hand when using this grip.

5) To the extent that the grip is most compatible with an angled hinge, it is a far better 'hitters' grip, however it can be quite useful for angled hinge swingers that focus on shoulder/pivot motion and play a fade.

I would recommend using an interlock if using 10-2-D.

I find it quite useful to start people off with 10-2-D, especially new players because the benefits of clubHEAD control can be an eye opening experience ("sizzle" is far simpler). It does take a solid pivot motion however and for those 'arms only' players it isn't likely to work beyond chips.

[12 piece bucket]

1) IMO - no, you can still maintain a 'flat' left wrist and in fact this makes things easier - you have 'locked' wedges

2) Yes - 'if' you have maintained that 'flat' left wrist, you are limited to angled hinge, however you can use it for cut shots if you are not true 'flat'

3) absolutely not inferior IMO - I think it can be quite superior in many cases. It is perhaps one of the best ways to get people to understand the feel of great clubHEAD control, and can make a zero shift procedure much simpler (clubSHAFT control). The issue is in clubFACE control, which IMO must be shifted to the base/palm of right hand when using this grip.

5) To the extent that the grip is most compatible with an angled hinge, it is a far better 'hitters' grip, however it can be quite useful for angled hinge swingers that focus on shoulder/pivot motion and play a fade.

I would recommend using an interlock if using 10-2-D.

I find it quite useful to start people off with 10-2-D, especially new players because the benefits of clubHEAD control can be an eye opening experience ("sizzle" is far simpler). It does take a solid pivot motion however and for those 'arms only' players it isn't likely to work beyond chips.

Edz,

Thanks for your contribution and insight! I agree with your analysis. You are spot on. The whole thing about 10-2-D being "inferior" was based on a strict definition of the Flying Wedge Assemblies as defined by Mr. K in 6-B-3-0-1 FLYING WEDGES:

. . . So – except in Sections 1 and 3 (Chapter the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane – the Right Forearm and the Clubshaft are, in like manner, positioned on the plane of the Right Wrist Bend AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE LEFT ARM PLANE. That is the precision assembly and alignment of the Power Package structure and is mandatory during the entire motion. Hitting or Swinging. Study 4-D-1 regarding “Grip” and “Flat Left Wrist”. Also see 7-3. Then, ideally, the Left Wrist is always Flat and the Right Wrist is always Level (4-A-1, 4-B-1).

I'm pretty much 10-2-D. My left hand just hangs naturally in a Turned condition. But I have fought the dreaded snipe hook all my life. I have wrestled with changing the grip, but I think I'm going to just go with what "the gud Lawd give me" as we say down in NC.

Could you expand on 10-2-D requiring a strong pivot? I know Lee Buck said that his swing was predicated on having a strong set of legs. Do you guys think that 10-2-D requires more Axis Tilt as well? And what about 10-2-D with Pitch Basic . . .Any issues?

To your point on Swinging . . .

I wish we could get the legendary mysterious and serious and ever so delerious EC to contribute on 10-2-D and Swingers!

EC told me over the phone that he felt that 10-2-D could really SLING the club into the ground better than any grip type. We have not been able to get together for a DEMO. But when EC talks I listen.

Welcome to da China Club!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bucket

[sdsurfmore]

thanks guys..great info ..off to incubate