Just saw your reply. Thank you for explanation as well as the pics, Jeff. I really appreciate the visuals you have provided. Althought, it gets testy at times I also appreciate the thinker threads you have initiated. Is this still the case if your intention is a zero shift, using the turned shoulder plane?
Inclined Plane - A flat surface of any extent positioned somewhere between horizontal and vertical. The through-the-waist "Plane of Rotation" of the Clubshaft as established during Address Routine.
What is the significance of the second sentence and how or where is it used? Cannot the clubshaft at address be on a plane that does not run through the waist? I can see how it is distinguished from a "basic plane" since a plane line is not included in the definition but could also see this implied if the conditions are an example. Seems like a strange way to define the plane angle if that is the intent.
DRW
This again is a direct quote, including the last sentence. This was found in the glossary.
Can you have a plane that is not through the waist? You can without a doubt. Is it ideal, is it effective? I guess I haven't come to a conclusion. In fact I am still trying to equate the last sentence to other areas of the text.
Mr. Kelley stated that Inclined Planes that fell between the elbow and shoulders were accepted planes. (elbow location, around the waist?)
<<This again is a direct quote, including the last sentence. This was found in the glossary>>
<<Mr. Kelley stated that Inclined Planes that fell between the elbow and shoulders were accepted planes. (elbow location, around the waist?)>>
I had checked and understood it was from the glossary. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. Nothing there on Plane Angle though so the assumption that there was a relationship to Inclined Plane (??). Mr. Kelley also said in 7-7 the elbow plane is almost totally subsconsciously used. His photos then focus on the steeper TSP, possibly because of the 12-1-0,-2 variations.
[quote="rwh
I e-mailed Tom Wishon about this and he disagreed with Chuck’s statement; his reply was that the hosel is vertical when the club is soled at it's designed loft.
Most irons today have 4-way cambered soles. Are you sure the club is level from front to back when it is clamped in the loft/lie machine?[/quote]
When I'm taking the loft, lie and other measurements the club is not in my loft/lie machine. While I can measure in that machine I use another device to do the measuring. I do this because the lof/lie machine can take a beating where as the other machine is ONLY used for measuring.
Tom's discription is an accurate description of the club orentation in my machine.
rotate around the sweetspot or rotate around the hands
I want to add a backswing point not too clear to the discussion:
On the dowswing, centrifugal force mantains the longitudinal mass gravity centre of the lever assembly (left arm, club), which is the sweetspot, on the same 2 dimensional (flat) circular trajectory. Especially in release, we can see the sweet spot staying on The Plane, or just staying moving in the same flat circular motion, while the lighter hands come closer to the body and near to the ground when rolling the wrists (with uncocked wrists, but plenty nº3 accumulator).
In the backswing(from address to end/top) rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa is very difficult, and having the sweetpot as a "fixed or rotation fixed point/centre" reference point is very difficult. Here little centrifugal force can be generated. So when a turn in the left wrist is made, the club (shaft and club head) moves around the hands.
So when Homer Kelley was talking about "rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa" maybe he is only adding this to the dowswing.
Because in the backswing it is better I think to have as reference point the hands moving with the same thrust' direction on the same plane and controlling the hands (rotating the clubhead/shaft around the hands). Because when you attempt to rotate your hands around the clubhead(club's sweetspot), rotate the hands (by turning action of the wrists) around a "sweetspot moving in a 2 dimensional angular motion(on the plane)", the club's sweetspot will be throwed out of plane (becomes 3 dimensional sweetspot's path) by not on plane forces that don't move in the same direction along the plane or flat circular trajectory. Not on plane forces such as cocking(when the left wrist cocking action is not on plane, i.e. when the left back of the hand is not facing/resting on the sweetspot plane), also turning/rolling with non zero nº3 accumulator is not an on plane force with the plane the sweetspot had previous to starting the turn/roll.
An experiment to illustrate this, hold a very light dowel and get with zero pivot on a position in the downswing when the right forearm is level to the ground. Point the dowel to your intended line of flight(to the ball), and then swing to impact very very very slowly. In the way down roll fast, snap rolling your wrist (but keep the hand's slow but even thrust) so at impact the imaginary clubface will be vertical to the intended line of flight. There you can see that the dowel rotated around the hands, the hands kept the same direction of motion (or in the same path), while the extreme of the dowel that would be the clubhead moved outward far beyond the line of flight, and the dowel missed the ball because the dowel moved away, and the hands mantained its position.
Incrementing the experiment's downswing velocity increases the centriugal force, and the effect "sweetspot/dowel impact zone becoming out of 2 dimensional plane, flat surface" is minimized. The backswing velocity is smaller in comparison to the velocity we can see at release.
Can you TGM's confirm if at the backswing you follow the sentence "rotate around the sweetspot", or do you turn the left wrist and move/rotate the clubhead around the hands, mantaining the hands in an ideal flat surface/plane and then when that is done, a little later you put the sweetspot on that same plane the hands are moving in.
I want to add a backswing point not too clear to the discussion:
On the dowswing, centrifugal force mantains the longitudinal mass gravity centre of the lever assembly (left arm, club), which is the sweetspot, on the same 2 dimensional (flat) circular trajectory. Especially in release, we can see the sweet spot staying on The Plane, or just staying moving in the same flat circular motion, while the lighter hands come closer to the body and near to the ground when rolling the wrists (with uncocked wrists, but plenty nº3 accumulator).
In the backswing(from address to end/top) rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa is very difficult, and having the sweetpot as a "fixed or rotation fixed point/centre" reference point is very difficult. Here little centrifugal force can be generated. So when a turn in the left wrist is made, the club (shaft and club head) moves around the hands.
So when Homer Kelley was talking about "rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa" maybe he is only adding this to the dowswing.
Because in the backswing it is better I think to have as reference point the hands moving with the same thrust' direction on the same plane and controlling the hands (rotating the clubhead/shaft around the hands). Because when you attempt to rotate your hands around the clubhead(club's sweetspot), rotate the hands (by turning action of the wrists) around a "sweetspot moving in a 2 dimensional angular motion(on the plane)", the club's sweetspot will be throwed out of plane (becomes 3 dimensional sweetspot's path) by not on plane forces that don't move in the same direction along the plane or flat circular trajectory. Not on plane forces such as cocking(when the left wrist cocking action is not on plane, i.e. when the left back of the hand is not facing/resting on the sweetspot plane), also turning/rolling with non zero nº3 accumulator is not an on plane force with the plane the sweetspot had previous to starting the turn/roll.
An experiment to illustrate this, hold a very light dowel and get with zero pivot on a position in the downswing when the right forearm is level to the ground. Point the dowel to your intended line of flight(to the ball), and then swing to impact very very very slowly. In the way down roll fast, snap rolling your wrist (but keep the hand's slow but even thrust) so at impact the imaginary clubface will be vertical to the intended line of flight. There you can see that the dowel rotated around the hands, the hands kept the same direction of motion (or in the same path), while the extreme of the dowel that would be the clubhead moved outward far beyond the line of flight, and the dowel missed the ball because the dowel moved away, and the hands mantained its position.
Incrementing the experiment's downswing velocity increases the centriugal force, and the effect "sweetspot/dowel impact zone becoming out of 2 dimensional plane, flat surface" is minimized. The backswing velocity is smaller in comparison to the velocity we can see at release.
Can you TGM's confirm if at the backswing you follow the sentence "rotate around the sweetspot", or do you turn the left wrist and move/rotate the clubhead around the hands, mantaining the hands in an ideal flat surface/plane and then when that is done, a little later you put the sweetspot on that same plane the hands are moving in.
Glue or tape a string to the sweetspot of the clubface and attach the other end to the grip. The sweetspot plane runs from pp3 at the grip to the center of the clubface. With this string attached, watch the shaft rotate around it on both the Take-Away and the Down Stroke. A thing of beauty.
Mike that is a nice visual, but if you were to use Kelley's Plane board, it doesn't work as written in chptr2.
Very simple, Kelley stating that the shaft remains on or against a flat plane and this concept creates two different planes that intersect at the grip, the sweetspot plane being the flatter.
I believe that chptr 2 is very problematic, Kelley needed more words and diagrams.
I know I sound like a broken record on this topic, but I have tried and tried and can not make his statements work as they are written. Something is missing, much like what is the reference point of the camera regarding CF in Kelley's descriptions.
I really believe that Kelley would not intentionally use a device or recommend a training aid that would contradict his intentions, the use of the plane board and the use of the park bench (drill) just doesn't support the plane being defined phyically by the sweetspot.
I will shut up now. (it has been almost a year since I argued these points)
Mike that is a nice visual, but if you were to use Kelley's Plane board, it doesn't work as written in chptr2.
Very simple, Kelley stating that the shaft remains on or against a flat plane and this concept creates two different planes that intersect at the grip, the sweetspot plane being the flatter.
I believe that chptr 2 is very problematic, Kelley needed more words and diagrams.
I know I sound like a broken record on this topic, but I have tried and tried and can not make his statements work as they are written. Something is missing, much like what is the reference point of the camera regarding CF in Kelley's descriptions.
I really believe that Kelley would not intentionally use a device or recommend a training aid that would contradict his intentions, the use of the plane board and the use of the park bench (drill) just doesn't support the plane being defined phyically by the sweetspot.
I will shut up now. (it has been almost a year since I argued these points)
The above bold that I've added is a critical point to understand regarding plane, and why it is that intersection, at pressure point #1, that stays 'on 'the' plane' - the line of pull of CF. The shaft, stays on 'a' plane per 1-L. See second paragraph of 2-F.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
I believe that chptr 2 is very problematic, Kelley needed more words and diagrams.
First of all, this thread is light-years away from "The Golfing Machine - Basic". That first post might run a newbie as far away from LBG as reading TGM would do. More words and more diagrams meant more out of pocket $$$ for Homer.
But, as evidenced in Homer's earliest sketch of 1-L, he thought we could see all the things that he saw. He understood later that he needed to list those 21 things, since no one knew what he was talking about.
The quote worthy of your first tattoo:
“But herein, unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application.”
The Sweet Spot moves in an orbit, on a plane. A plane board is a reasonable proximity, but does not allow the Sweet Spot to move in a straight line and is a total contradiction to the geometry and physics of the above quote. The challenge for anyone becomes this: create a plane board that utilizes the Center of Gravity application. Good luck. Let me know when you’ve finished it, and I’ll buy one.
Mike that is a nice visual, but if you were to use Kelley's Plane board, it doesn't work as written in chptr2.
Very simple, Kelley stating that the shaft remains on or against a flat plane and this concept creates two different planes that intersect at the grip, the sweetspot plane being the flatter.
I believe that chptr 2 is very problematic, Kelley needed more words and diagrams.
I know I sound like a broken record on this topic, but I have tried and tried and can not make his statements work as they are written. Something is missing, much like what is the reference point of the camera regarding CF in Kelley's descriptions.
I really believe that Kelley would not intentionally use a device or recommend a training aid that would contradict his intentions, the use of the plane board and the use of the park bench (drill) just doesn't support the plane being defined phyically by the sweetspot.
I will shut up now. (it has been almost a year since I argued these points)
When the club is "turned to the plane" - are the sweetspot and shaft planes the same?
More words and more diagrams meant more out of pocket $$$ for Homer.
Good luck. Let me know when you’ve finished it, and I’ll buy one.
Hybrid Mode
