impact on TSP

[Daryl]

I'm wondering about some pros and cons to the downswing being on the TSP.. including impact. Are there any specific components or accumulator sequences that would be necessary?

not sure where this can go but a little discussion on it might trigger a few questions. thanks

You should read my Book, "1001 Problems with the Elbow Plane".

Consider this:

1. Normally, the Elbow Plane requires a Delivery Path Shift. You can (but almost impossible) Trace the Plane Line after the Shift. Until then, no tracing. But this is overshadowed by a bigger problem. Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane are different until Release. That means while the Hands trace one path, the Clubhead is tracing another. Elbow Plane Golfers need to find "The Slot" or "Groove". With the TSP, the Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane share the same Angle throughout the Downstroke and Impact.
   
   
2. Shallower Planes require the Left Arm to move away from the Chest earlier than Steeper Planes. The Shallower the Plane, the Earlier the Release. Early Release is a Cause of Throwaway. Therefore, Shallow Swing Planes Cause Throwaway. An Elbow Plane is a Shallow Plane, therefore the Elbow Plane Causes Throwaway.
   
   
3. Elbow Planes are notoriously Pivot Controlled Hands Procedures. This means that the #3 or #2 PP trace the Pivots Rotation, not the Plane Line.
   
   
4. Elbow Planes rely on Pivot Speed. TSP relies on Downstroke Acceleration Sequence.

[12 piece bucket]

You should read my Book, "1001 Problems with the Elbow Plane".

Consider this:

1. Normally, the Elbow Plane requires a Delivery Path Shift. You can (but almost impossible) Trace the Plane Line after the Shift. Until then, no tracing. But this is overshadowed by a bigger problem. Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane are different until Release. That means while the Hands trace one path, the Clubhead is tracing another. Elbow Plane Golfers need to find "The Slot" or "Groove". With the TSP, the Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane share the same Angle throughout the Downstroke and Impact.
   
   can you show me a golfer that really gets on the TSP at impact? Most golfers who play at the highest levels are on the elbow plane . . . do you have an explanation for why they do such a thing?
   
2. Shallower Planes require the Left Arm to move away from the Chest earlier than Steeper Planes. The Shallower the Plane, the Earlier the Release. Early Release is a Cause of Throwaway. Therefore, Shallow Swing Planes Cause Throwaway. An Elbow Plane is a Shallow Plane, therefore the Elbow Plane Causes Throwaway.
   Why would the left arm moving away from the chest be a problem? Is not the release sequence 4-1-2-3? Is this not a natural occurrence? Why would you want to delay #4? Could this not cause a Bob?
   
3. Elbow Planes are notoriously Pivot Controlled Hands Procedures. This means that the #3 or #2 PP trace the Pivots Rotation, not the Plane Line.
   What does this mean?
   
4. Elbow Planes rely on Pivot Speed. TSP relies on Downstroke Acceleration Sequence.
   
   is the downstroke acceleration sequence not dependent upon pivot speed . . . massive rotor?

Oh boy . . . here we go . . . .

[12 piece bucket]

Thanks again Kev,

Why do you think that using more #3 doesn't result in distance? I know what #2 and #3 are but I think I'm confused as to their usage with a tsp straight line delivery.

To me the advantage of the elbow plane lies in Mr. Kelley's description of it in the earlier editions (1,2,3) . . . the right forearm traveling at right angles to the axis . . . AND on the flatter plane the rate the clubface rotates around the sweetspot is SLOWER for a given amount of roll . . . so the mechanical advantages in my mind are the slower rate of rotation of the clubface and the physics of the club moving at right angles to the "axis of rotation".

[Daryl]

Bucket Asked: is the downstroke acceleration sequence not dependent upon pivot speed . . . massive rotor?

The Acceleration Sequence is present in non-Pivot Swings as Well as Pivot Swings.

1. Shoulder Acceleration
2. Hand Acceleration
3. Clubhead Acceleration

The amount of Lag Pressure required for distance control, in an Alignment Based Swing, determines the Speed of your Pivots Rotation.

This is symptomatic with Pivot Controlled Hands Players, to take the shortest club requiring the greatest effort to hit the Ball within 10 feet of your target, when, if anything other than a perfect wing, results in decreased distance.

[12 piece bucket]

Bucket Asked: is the downstroke acceleration sequence not dependent upon pivot speed . . . massive rotor?

The Acceleration Sequence is present in non-Pivot Swings as Well as Pivot Swings.

1. Shoulder Acceleration
2. Hand Acceleration
3. Clubhead Acceleration

The amount of Lag Pressure required for distance control, in an Alignment Based Swing, determines the Speed of your Pivots Rotation.

This is symptomatic with Pivot Controlled Hands Players, to take the shortest club requiring the greatest effort to hit the Ball within 10 feet of your target, when, if anything other than a perfect wing, results in decreased distance.

You're exactly right . . . you do see pro's on the PGA tour on the elbow plane not controlling their distances well . . . great point.

[EdZ]

Oh boy . . . here we go . . . .

TSP limits the amount you can load PP#4, which takes some 'mass' out of the force created and lessens #3's transfer power.

Agreed that it is easier to master (a left hand karate chop to plane, focused on #2).

In a nutshell, TSP is less powerful, but more accurate.

Kev - a flat downstroke turn creates too much 'out', and makes it difficult to stay on plane.

[12 piece bucket]

TSP limits the amount you can load PP#4, which takes some 'mass' out of the force created and lessens #3's transfer power.

Agreed that it is easier to master (a left hand karate chop to plane, focused on #2).

In a nutshell, TSP is less powerful, but more accurate.

Kev - a flat downstroke turn creates too much 'out', and makes it difficult to stay on plane.

Ed . . . why do you think there is more accuracy inherent in the TSP? Not sure I'm ready to buy in . . . interested to hear your rationale.

[O.B.Left]

Thanks Kev, great answer.

If I understand this correctly, the shoulder turn is a flatter one in which the right shoulder traces the tsp into impact.

I'm confused on what is bold.


10-13-B FLAT
This is a relatively flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn which places the Shoulder “On Plane” for any Plane Angle with a flatter angle than the Rotated Shoulder Angle. A Flat Down-stroke Shoulder Turn can serve only to impact a circular motion to the Stroke, but almost irresistibly “Off Plane.”

10-13-D ON PLANE
After a 13-B or 13-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Down-stroke Clubshaft Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments. When the Shoulder can’t quite reach the Plane, it is better to use a steeper Plane.

Hey, can I get in on this party?

In regard to 10-13-B FLAT. I believe your bolded "almost always irresistibly Off Plane" is the Startdown's equivalent to the pure Shoulder Turn Takeaway in Startup and the basic problem there in. Namely, the shoulders are not (given a Flat Shoulder Turn in startdown) traveling on the Inclined Plane and therefore are likely to take the Hands or Power Package with them on their off plane meanderings.

Pivot Chain and Sequencing etc demand that the Shoulders and not the Arms provide the initial movement in Startdown for Total Motion shots and so its best to align the Shoulders to the Inclined Plane in Startdown. 10-13-D On Plane. (In Startdown)

All of this suggests that the shoulders dont ideally merely turn on the same plane back and down. Flat Back gets the Right Shoulder closer to Shaft Plane relatively speaking (compared to Rotated which would have a higher associated TSP angle) and then On Plane going down. Luke described this to me as the right shoulder painting a reverse "7" on the back wall of his hitting station. Notice how the top of the seven is flat and then a diagonal towards the ball. This portrays a TSP which is on the Shaft Plane I guess. Straight Line Delivery Path which requires Hip Action.

So the 10-13-B Flat going back lowers the Right Shoulder some and then given a Slide Hip Turn, Axis Tilt in transition (or before, see Hogan) the Right Shoulder is further lowered to a Turned Shoulder Plane that more closely approaches the Shaft Plane for it move 10-13-D On Plane. If this TSP actually matches the shaft plane, then no further plane angle shifting is required, if it only approaches the shaft plane then a shift or shifts (the more shifts the more you approach Circle Path) will be required. But its less of a shift than if you didnt use Axis Tilt.

At least that is what I make of 10-13-D's "better to use a steeper plane". If Im correct, which remains to be seen, it should probably read something like "When the Shoulder cant quite reach the Shaft Plane, its still better to use this TSP plane angle than a higher one".

You know when you try to rewrite Homer you quickly understand his preference for brevity. Consider the previous paragraph a Wiki guys.

[KevCarter]

TSP limits the amount you can load PP#4, which takes some 'mass' out of the force created and lessens #3's transfer power.

Agreed that it is easier to master (a left hand karate chop to plane, focused on #2).

In a nutshell, TSP is less powerful, but more accurate.

Kev - a flat downstroke turn creates too much 'out', and makes it difficult to stay on plane.

I agree, that's why I believe YODA teaches Standard shoulder turn which is on plane on the downstroke.

10-13-A STANDARD
This is dual application of the Flat (-B below) Backstroke and On Plane (-D below) Down-stroke Shoulder Turn.

In my opinion, the flat backstroke shoulder turn is wonderfully compatible with the MacDonald drills.

Kevin

[KevCarter]

Hey, can I get in on this party?

In regard to 10-13-B FLAT. I believe your bolded "almost always irresistibly Off Plane" is the Startdown's equivalent to the pure Shoulder Turn Takeaway in Startup and the basic problem there in. Namely, the shoulders are not (given a Flat Shoulder Turn in startdown) traveling on the Inclined Plane and therefore are likely to take the Hands or Power Package with them on their off plane meanderings.

Pivot Chain and Sequencing etc demand that the Shoulders and not the Arms provide the initial movement in Startdown for Total Motion shots and so its best to align the Shoulders to the Inclined Plane in Startdown. 10-13-D On Plane. (In Startdown)

All of this suggests that the shoulders dont ideally merely turn on the same plane back and down. Flat Back gets the Right Shoulder closer to Shaft Plane relatively speaking (compared to Rotated which would have a higher associated TSP angle) and then On Plane going down. Luke described this to me as the right shoulder painting a reverse "7" on the back wall of his hitting station. Notice how the top of the seven is flat and then a diagonal towards the ball. This portrays a TSP which is on the Shaft Plane I guess. Straight Line Delivery Path which requires Hip Action.

So the 10-13-B Flat going back lowers the Right Shoulder some and then given a Slide Hip Turn, Axis Tilt in transition (or before, see Hogan) the Right Shoulder is further lowered to a Turned Shoulder Plane that more closely approaches the Shaft Plane for it move 10-13-D On Plane. If this TSP actually matches the shaft plane, then no further plane angle shifting is required, if it only approaches the shaft plane then a shift or shifts (the more shifts the more you approach Circle Path) will be required. But its less of a shift than if you didnt use Axis Tilt.

At least that is what I make of 10-13-D's "better to use a steeper plane". If Im correct, which remains to be seen, it should probably read something like "When the Shoulder cant quite reach the Shaft Plane, its still better to use this TSP plane angle than a higher one".

You know when you try to rewrite Homer you quickly understand his preference for brevity. Consider this last paragraph a Wiki guys.

Some wonderful G.O.L.F. in that post. Thanks OB!

Kevin