Hip rotation

[HungryBear]

I think the swing left deal equals on plane. To keep the sweet spot on plane the feeling would be swing left to players that swing right. The only way to really understand the plane is do what Homer did. Build a plane board.

I have built both a plane board and a PVC plane rail.
The board is simple. A 4x8 sheet 1/2" covered foam insulation. Cut a 30" radius center-edge. Adjust with 2 48" driveway markers for angle desired. < $7 cost.
Rail is 2 10' lengths 2" pvc (grey) electrical conduit, 2ea. 2" PVC (white) DWV (pluming-drain) "T's" and 90*'s . cut one 10' into stand pieces and cut molded coupling off one 10' to fit fittings. No glue, friction fit, assemble when using. $10-$12 cost.
Good and Bad points.
Good- gives a clearand different view of swing
Bad- Both promote a tendency to try for a sweep release so the shaft rides on the plane. You have to overcome this tendency or U are doing nothing.
ALSO- ( I do things on the EDGE so these are my "damages") I have nicked the plane board low/right between release and impact- only during swinging [only use Irons]. I think this is hossel hitting board at swivel because sweet spot trys to stay on plane so hossel goes underplane.
I quickly smashed the rail and had to replace because after a few swings I tried a metal wood. The good thing was I hit the bar less than a club length behind the ball . SO remember a metal wood has a big protrusion below plane before swivel. Irons don't do this so not an off plane movement.

The Bear

[BerntR]

I bought a simple lazer devise that attaches to the shaft of the club. With one laser pointing each way.

It told me a lot about my swing plane. Eventually I concluded that keeping the shaft on plane was not for me. I'm a natural born plane-shifter.

[O.B.Left]

I bought a simple lazer devise that attaches to the shaft of the club. With one laser pointing each way.

It told me a lot about my swing plane. Eventually I concluded that keeping the shaft on plane was not for me. I'm a natural born plane-shifter.

Shifting planes should not take either ends laser off the plane line. 1-L-18.

I have one of those laser gizmos too and like it as well. Mine actually points a laser out of the #3pp at the sweetspot which I like. Dont know if I should mention the make, but lets say its offered by a guy that used to coach Tiger Woods. Im thinking the genius of its alignment is probably mere happenstance. No offence to Dutch Barmon , I just dont think he had Homers geometry in mind, thats all.

Remember it is really the Sweet Spot plane that travels the Inclined Plane , the shaft and butt end are only handy, close approximates. The #3pp is the lowest point on the grip that attaches to the shaft, making it the top of the Sweespot Plane, the Longitudinal Center of Gravity. Take a plum bob line and attach it to the top of the grip, where it intersects the face is the commonly termed Sweetspot , but the entire line is the LCOG. Now move the top of the plumb bob down to a lower point on the grip, where the #3 pp would be approximately. Notice how the place where the line crosses the clubface has moved!!!!!!! The sweetspot on the face has moved!

Gripping down on a club moves the sweetspot. Lag Pressure is the feeling of the Sweetspot, so direct that pressure at the ball. The shaft rotates around the LCOG, not vice versa. " The Sweetspot is a point without dimension", said Homer. Like a balance point.

So running the shaft down a plane or rail is good for training but not exactly what is going on when swinging. The shaft will be under the plane at impact. Which is why Homer preferred a flash light held at the #3pp for plane tracing exercises.

The high jumpers COG never gets over the bar but his arched body does (and he rotates his feet around it).

[O.B.Left]

Bad- Both promote a tendency to try for a sweep release so the shaft rides on the plane. You have to overcome this tendency or U are doing nothing.

The Bear

It is the Hands that we Swing and the #3pp that we direct, Trace with. Swinging the Clubhead will always promote a Sweep Release. A throwing of the clubhead at the ball.

Swing the Hands, let the Club go where ever it wants to go in the hands. The Hands are just clamps.

Release is when the Palm of the Left Hand comes off the Inclined Plane. Put your brain in your Hands, in your Pressure Points. Play by feel.


What was it Homer said? "If you're not getting all you should out of your shots , despite your knowledge of alignments. STOP MONITORING THE CLUBHEAD AND MONITOR THE HANDS!" Something like that.

[HungryBear]

It is the Hands that we Swing and the #3pp that we direct, Trace with. Swinging the Clubhead will always promote a Sweep Release. A throwing of the clubhead at the ball.

Swing the Hands, let the Club go where ever it wants to go in the hands. The Hands are just clamps.

Release is when the Palm of the Left Hand comes off the Inclined Plane. Put your brain in your Hands, in your Pressure Points. Play by feel.


What was it Homer said? "If you're not getting all you should out of your shots , despite your knowledge of alignments. STOP MONITORING THE CLUBHEAD AND MONITOR THE HANDS!" Something like that.

Thanks But:

I think you missed my point.

I was talking about using a plane board or a rail. With either a "proper" swing the hands are so far down plane that the shaft does not reach the board or the rail until almost release for a plane board and after release for the rail but to SEE-LOOK, LOOK, Look- the shaft ON the plain BOARD or RAIL requires an early sweeping motion.

While here- Sweet Spot- Where it is and how and why it gets on the ball begs some theoretical discussion.
Try this- In the dark, have someone hand you clubs with a non indexed grip and without plum bobing them find the sweet spot face orientation 100% of the time.
You may be surprised. Watch the trick shot artist, always has an "address routine" for locating...??

The Bear

[HungryBear]

Thanks all for helping me think this out.

I think the problem/solution is:

I "was" not only sliding and rotating my hips but also turning them on a sweeping plane. very close to what may be called a hip plane.
this down and around I do not find in any competent swing I have looked at.
The best swings show a very level hip turn.

I got out a couple of my shop adjustable roller stands. One stand just under my butt. As i go to top my right cheek kind of sits on the roller, I slide along roller only 2-3 inches then as i rotate left I feel my left cheek sit on the roller and if I am swinging my butt kind of rolls around end of roller and If I am hitting it kind of stays on roller.
This is far from automatic yet and the feel is very different but I have looked and looked in a mirror and I think I am on the right track.

I use a second roller in front of right thigh an I try not to bump it .

How does my analysis and remedy sound?


The Bear

[Daryl]

Thanks all for helping me think this out.

The best swings show a very level hip turn.

A level Hip Turn does not cause the knees to bend. Are their knees Bending? Standing Straight Up and Turning your Shoulders causes a Flat Shoulder Turn which Causes a Flat Hip Turn. A Golfer that can make a Full Swing with Hips remaining Level-ish is extremely flexible.

I got out a couple of my shop adjustable roller stands. One stand just under my butt. As i go to top my right cheek kind of sits on the roller, I slide along roller only 2-3 inches then as i rotate left I feel my left cheek sit on the roller and if I am swinging my butt kind of rolls around end of roller and If I am hitting it kind of stays on roller.
This is far from automatic yet and the feel is very different but I have looked and looked in a mirror and I think I am on the right track.

I use a second roller in front of right thigh an I try not to bump it .

How does my analysis and remedy sound?


The Bear

At the least, your roller drill may help you to learn to maintain your posture. That's a good thing.

Go-ahead and test your results with the V.J. Trolio Dowel Drill. Let us know the results. Pass or Fail?

[HungryBear]

Go-ahead and test your results with the V.J. Trolio Dowel Drill. Let us know the results. Pass or Fail?[/quote]

Thanks;

It enables me to pass the dowel drill. BECAUSE- (now I have not tested long enough to see all the results). I FEEL that my pelvis rotates MUCH quicker but also slows quickly and sooner. I have a better pivot separation between pelvis and shoulders. maybe I shouldnt mention the words but _KINEMATIC SEQUENCE- with distinct hip and shoulder separation.

The rollers do not help with balance because I will just roll off or push them away if I put much pressure against them. I just feel position.

The Bear

[Daryl]

I FEEL that my pelvis rotates MUCH quicker but also slows quickly and sooner. I have a better pivot separation between pelvis and shoulders. maybe I shouldnt mention the words but _KINEMATIC SEQUENCE- with distinct hip and shoulder separation.

The Bear

That's good news. And ya, anyone who overdoes the lateral slide will feel like the the pelvis rotates much more quickly. But as long as posture doesn't change, then the Hips won't interfere with the VJ Drill.

Please don't use "Kinematic Sequence". Please use "Pivot Lag".

[HungryBear]

Thanks all.

I am still testing and looking.
I am at the point where a "no slide" feel is what I need to work on. Even with a no slide feel I have a slide.
I have look closely in the mirror and even with short strokes and trying not to I have a slide.
I have traced to find a necessary clearance for the right elbow and it takes very little to assure clearance. short clubs with closer hands have elbow contact for rffw than longer clubs with proper rffw. This surprised me.
Much of this may be because I "was" an old C guy- ?? Old Habit that still stuck?
I am going to work on this feel. I see plenty of slide and hip clearance with a no slide feel. Comments? Suggestions?

Thanks
The Bear