The Tomasello Argument
 

I have often wondered where Tom Tomasello came up with the comments in his 1991 Golf Illustrated interview where he says...

Tomasello: Yes. The delayed hit is merely keeping the right wrist bent through impact. All that stuff about leading the downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power--it's all terribly wrong! It seems to be what's happening, but it's not really what happens in the most efficient, centifugal-force swing there is no forward motion by any part of the body. There are just the two "force vectors" I've described.

To say "leading the downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power--it's all terribly wrong!" That's a pretty bold statement...however, I was reading the seventh edition over the weekend and discovered the last paragraph of 2-N-O had been revised...after reading this section I'm starting to understand where the comments from Tomasello may have come from...

Last paragraph of 2-N-O.

Proper Clubhead control is dependent on coordinationg the complete Hip Turn with the selected Right Elbow Position (10-3), Motion (6-B-1), and Path (7-3) to avoid collisions as well as for Balance and Axis Tilt. (See 7-15.) To accomplish both the Backstroke and Downstroke must be executed as 7-3, 10-3 and 10-5-0 discuss that procedure."

After listening to my private lesson tapes with Tomasello over the last few months, I have come to the conclusion that in no way was Tomasello trying to reinvent TGM. It's interesting that the above statement from Homer references 7-3....Magic of the Right Forearm???

DG

Tom Tomasello
 

Tom was a good teacher. He was constantly learning, and would occasionally put the EMPHASIS on a new idea, or concept that he learned about TGM.

It is debatable whether the standard procedure he usually taught was HITTING. SWINGING, or COMBO, but I think he was actuually very close to much of what is taught here on this forum. He liked to emphasize "THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM," and portions of the book that refered to this. He also liked a RIGHT FOREARM RELEASE TRIGGER, but did show me rhe Left Wrist Trigger also.

During his Advance Schools, he went over several different procedures, and many Short Game shots. He knew more than just one procedure.

Taking into account Tri-Pod Center and this discussion of "creating power by driving the hips, legs, etc....." I really don't mind the concept that is being taught by allowing the head to move off the ball, however, if the head moves enough to allow the left shoulder to be disrupted from low point then a player must "drive the hips, legs, etc...." to get the left shoulder back to where it should be.

With that being said, the whole foundation of two different motions in the pivot can be seen. One with the flat left wrist-one with the arched left wrist. Different knee action, foot action, hip action, and a vast majority of other distinct differences.

So the question is, was the message of Tri-Pod Center lost because of a generation of instructors that did not understand it until Lynn brought it back out some 3-5 years ago. I am not trying to give Lynn all the credit, I just never heard of this concept until I got to him via multiple TGM instructors. Even me, with a Masters in Golf Stroke Engineering never heard the phrase "Tripod pivot center" until Lynn.

So, if not Tri-Pod center then an entire train of different pivot components must jump in there to save impact. The pattern is in the book, just as tri-pod center is.......but what do the best motions in the world look like? Very steady with few moving parts in the pivot or moving off the ball with more moving parts in the pivot?

Mastering the Magic of the Right Forearm....
 

Lagster,

With Tommy, I only see consistency with teaching a Magic of the Right Forearm procedure (not a flavor of the month approach)...he taught it to Mark Evershed in the 1984/1985. I'm sure he taught it to Jodie Mudd in that time frame too (I have video of Jodie from the 1991 US Open, the downstroke action and finish look exactly like Tomasello). I have a 1988 video of Tommy, again teaching a Magic of the Right Forearm swing...in the 1989 Australia video we have Tommy teaching Australian PGA professionals a right forearm swing....in the 1991 Golf Illustrated interview, Right Forearm again...in 1992, it's the right forearm again with Lee Deitrick, in late 1993 Tommy's at it again teaching DG the Magic of the Right Forearm...and I believe Coophitter studied with Tommy in the 1992/1993 too, and again a Magic of the Right Forearm instruction. No sign of deviation. In fact, I believe the 1988 video clearly shows an instructor demonstrating mastery of an approach (a system of teaching with defined drills to achieve proper execution)...a Magic of the Right Forearm approach.

DG

Tom Tomasello
 

///////////////////////////////////////////////

Yes, Tom really liked that Right Forearm procedure, but he knew about other procedures also. I worked with him many times.

He taught that Right Forearm procedure to many people, and many people liked it and had success with it. During his Advanced School... Tom demonstrated Classic Rope Handle Swinging, and Standard Hitting(he liked a Strong Double Action for Hitting), and could do both pretty well.

I believe the procedure Tom described in the Golf Illustrated Magazine, was the way he thought was probably the easiest way to play golf. The Right Forearm cocks Up and Down, and there is very little lateral motion of the Pivot.

Jodie Mudd was one of his famous students, but another one that did quite well was 2 time U.S. Senior Amateur Champion... Clarence Moore. Clarence used the Right Forearm Procedure when I saw him, and struck the ball beautifully. He would also use Standard Hitting at times, especially when he was between clubs.

This is not a question of whether or not Tommy thought this was an easier procedure, the statment that I highlighted in the interview said leading with the hips and legs towards the target was terribly wrong versus being a different procedure. It's interesting that Tommy didn't teach Mark Evershed, Peter Croker, Lee Deitrick or Coophitter an advanced procedure there all PGA professionals?

In my lesson with Tommy, he said the hips don't generate power they only maintain velocity.

DG

"except by direct extension of the swing radius to the feet"

The 'chain' needs to be as long as possible for max power - radius power.

Schools
 

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Yes, Tom used to have Schools. He had different ones. A kind of Basic School, Hitting School, and Advanced School. I'm not sure what Schools these guys went through, if any. Tom would also teach private lessons, mostly there in the studio upstairs at Deertrack.

At the ADVANCED SCHOOL, the procedures he taught were not necessarily more Advanced, they were just different procedures. Tom wanted students, especially teachers, to uderstand different procedures. I remember he said something like... "Today we will go out and see how Hogan swung the club," when he was teaching about Classic Swinging.

Now... if a student went there strictly as a PLAYER, he would probably not have them go into those different procedures much, if at all. They would most likely stay with that procedure written about in Golf Illustrated. I think much of what Tom taught in this procedure came from 7-3 in TGM.

Too often, the pivot was (not here anymore) thought of as a power move as in let’s yank this sucker around to pull down the arms and let it rip. When in fact the pivot is a facilitator in the same manner a lumber company needs to build a road before it can harvest timber. The main concern of the pivot is not power but delivery. The pivot needs to delivery the hands before the clubhead can "sweetspot" the ball.

Also Lynn- Yoda’s first major series of posts were called “The Magic of the Right Forearm.” It is not just for TT’s procedures but the main motion for all of us. Watch a kid play T-Ball and he traces the horizontal plane with the bat, back and forth from the teed ball without a lesson in his life. Homer, Lynn and TT only helped us find the natural motion again.

Thanks Lagster...

Lagster,

I totally agree with the way Clarence Moore used the right forearm for swinging and hitting...I believe Tommy looked beyond just stroke patterns and recognized how TGM would impact playing golf with a user friendly right arm approach to the game.

Quality increases as we reduce variation in the system. The use of the Magic of the Right Forearm does just that...reduces variation.

DG

not in my opinion
 

I appreciate your dedication to keeping Tomasello's views alive. It shows a lot of respect for your mentor. It's the same respect that I'll show to Lynn if he passes in another 900 years.

But, I don't agree with the quote above. The bent right wrist is not an "out-of-line" condition that's seeking an "in-line" condition. Now, the straightening of the right elbow, on the other hand, can be delayed. And, this would require the right shoulder getting closer to the ball via the hip slide.

Ted,

Please provide TGM references to support your arguement?

In the meantime, watch Tommy's Chapter series 1 video on the "Pivot" and the Tomasello Letter number 2 video, I believe watching those two videos will clear up your confusion. Please take the time to watch those two videos before responding. Thanks. As Joe Perry of Aerosmith wrote the song "Let the Music do the Talking", in this case, I'll let the videos do the talking from the man himself.


DG

R-e-s-p-e-c-t
 

Somehow...

I feel better now.

:)

I think.

Only that first 900 years passed awfully fast!

:(

:laughing9

Bagger or BamBam
 

Bagger or BamBam,
I believe that Mr. Fort is calling Lynn OLD- certainly could be trash talking- this is out of line- Ya! YOUR OLD TED! Take that!:eyes:

Deliverance
 

You looking for a "get out of jail free" card Mike O? :laughing9
Nope, ain't buy'in it.

BamBam
 

Ah- BamBam - good old buddy - where are ya? Bam? .....Please::pray:

Hey, by the way - I'm clicking on the eusa prayer emoticon and getting the icon prayer emoticon- Who's been mess'n with my emoticons!!:mad: This is either Bucket, Bagger or Fort- I know it! Heads are going to roll!:hang:

Sorry, Mike. I'm not gonna get into it with Bagger; I hear them Texas fellers are pretty tough and easily riled. :)

By the way, your pray icon should be working. Not naming names, but I found some greasy fingerprints and an empty KFC container in our smilie administration area :naughty:

Tomasello Arguement
 

Back to Golf...

I have often wondered where Tom Tomasello came up with the comments in his 1991 Golf Illustrated interview where he says...

Tomasello: Yes. The delayed hit is merely keeping the right wrist bent through impact. All that stuff about leading the downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power--it's all terribly wrong! It seems to be what's happening, but it's not really what happens in the most efficient, centifugal-force swing there is no forward motion by any part of the body. There are just the two "force vectors" I've described.

To say "leading the downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power--it's all terribly wrong!" That's a pretty bold statement...however, I was reading the seventh edition over the weekend and discovered the last paragraph of 2-N-O had been revised...after reading this section I'm starting to understand where the comments from Tomasello may have come from...

Last paragraph of 2-N-O.

Proper Clubhead control is dependent on coordinationg the complete Hip Turn with the selected Right Elbow Position (10-3), Motion (6-B-1), and Path (7-3) to avoid collisions as well as for Balance and Axis Tilt. (See 7-15.) To accomplish both the Backstroke and Downstroke must be executed as 7-3, 10-3 and 10-5-0 discuss that procedure."

After listening to my private lesson tapes with Tomasello over the last few months, I have come to the conclusion that in no way was Tomasello trying to reinvent TGM. It's interesting that the above statement from Homer references 7-3....Magic of the Right Forearm???

DG

All I know is whenever my swing starts to go sideways all I need to do is go back and view Tommy T's vids and get out my short training club. Magic of the Right Forearm, 1 to 2, 2 to 3 etc. Throw in a some Mark Evershed ("Swing left and get everything else for free") and I'm back. Put your mind in your hands. Sequence the arms. Bent right wrist, horizontal hinge, finish swivel. It's all there. You don't have to worry about sliding, turning, weight shift etc. It's a beautiful thing!

Vertical arm drop
 

Is TT's procedure of initiating the downswing by bringing the arms/hands down from the top and reconnecting the right elbow to the side (if you take your hands back beyond right shoulder height) referenced in the Yellow Book. I believe he recommends this move as the 1st one in the transition from backswing to downswing while staying fully turned.

Chapter Video #1 and Letter Video #2
 

When I asked Tomasello about where in the book does it say to start the downswing with the right forearm. His response was 7-3 the Magic of the Right Forearm. Watch the two videos I referenced earlier in this thread. Chapter series video 1 and Letter series video 2. Tommy references the Magic of the Right Forearm at the end of Letter series video 2. In Letter video 2 when Tommy says you do it with your hands, reference section 5-0 where Homer says "Learn to SWING THE HANDS, MONITOR THE HANDS".

DG

AMEN:salut:

I think Letter video 2 is the best video in under standing the magic of the right forearm. If you do just as Tom says it’s magic.

Tim

I still haven't reconciled the differences between the Australian tapes and the video letters. My swing is based off of the video letters.

Take it from the TOP
 

I believe the letter series fills in what's missing from the Australia video. Both video series integrate well...

What's missing in the Australia video (shot in 1989) is the emphasis on uncocking the right elbow from the top...however, I have video of Tommy approximately a year earlier and he mentions uncocking the right elbow from the top during an extensor action demonstration. If you listen closely to the Australia video...chapter 9 (Hitting and Swinging)Tommy says the phrase...."One smooth motion"...which indicates to me that he is throwing the club from the top using Longitudinal acceleration...Longitudinal=Running or placed Lengthwise.

DG

Hi DG and ChangeMySwing,

I agree with ChangeMySwing that there appears to be a difference in the Australian Video where Tomesello appear to connect the elbows to the hip and then execute a 'hit it' procedure directly at the ball. In the video letter series, he execute a karate chop to the ground, much like the CGS procedure.

I am a beginning golfer and still finetuning my swing. I like what Tomesello teaches and would like to know if there is really any difference between the above two procedures (or if one is merely a drill).

Appreciate any help where possible.

cheers,

daniel

Here is where the confusion lies...in the Australia video Tommy is demonstrating the swing in slow motion...two motions are happening at the same time...the right forearm moves down at the same time as the right elbow uncocks. The Australia video emphasizes the right forearm moving down where as in the Letter series video Tommy emphasizes the uncocking motion. You really need to watch both series to understand the full motion. To prove my point...watch the letter #2 video...watch where Tommy's swing ends up when he talks about high speed cameras capturing the swing in slow motion...Tommy ends up at the same release point as the Australia video. As Tommy says, "It's an illusion"....both swings end up at a snap release point. Why? Because it's the same swing. Taught two different ways...I have been watching the Australia video for 13 years, I know all of the subtle differences.

DG

DG,

Thanks for your reply and clarification. I've seen a very slow-mo clip of Hogan's downswing and he also connects the elbow to the hip and than seems like a pull with his left hand. Very much like what Tomesello describe and taught in the start of the downswing in the Australian series.

However when I try to execute a karate chop to the ground first, it appears that I am getting more of a sweep release type of action, like the CGS swing.

Both works, I guess. But you say I should end up with a snap-release type of action with both procedures. I've got to review the videos again.

Thanks a million for your help.

cheers,

daniel

Daniel - if you are seeing a sweep when using the right hand karate chop move, chances are good that your pivot and/or address position needs some checking. Possible your aiming point is off as well, but less likely IMO.

Hard to say without seeing your motion, but check your right forearm position at fix/right hand grip to make sure you aren't coming in with too high a right forearm. For the pivot, you are likely roundhousing to some degree. Pratice some shots with your right foot drawn back to get the feel for that karate chop coming from the inside without your shoulders opening too early. That will combine well with the 'down and out on the plane' that Tomasello is talking about in letter #2.

Another image that may help is to work on what feels like cross line hip motion - "like kicking a soccer ball" to use Wally Armstrong's image. Take your right hip back over your right heel, diagonally through over your left toes.

Hot Rodding the TT pattern.
 

Is a bent left wrist at the top of the back swing detrimental to this pattern? I seem to have more clubhead speed and a tighter swing with a bent left wrist. I've only tried this in the backyard with plastic balls.

Grip Variation?
 

What Grip Type are you using?
A 10-2-D perhaps?

Hi EdZ,

Thanks you very much for the tip.

I do feel that my pivot is not correct. When we see Tomasello, and I have seen both series many times, he makes it look so simple. And I must say, he does have very good and smooth pivot action.

Another problem I have is shoulder action. At the top of the backswing, is my shoulder level to the ground or is it incline with the left shoulder slightly lower than the right. When I see the Tomasello video, his left seems to be lower, like using the rotated shoulder turn. However, if I start from Impact Fix with a tilt, it seems impossible for me to get to a rotated shoulder turn.

Am I doing something wrong?

regards,

daniel

Ed, would that be a hitters hip motion cross-line? or is it still in sync with da swinger?

About the Tommy vid to Lee, there is no emphasis on the right shoulder at all in his teachings, does that mean he is neutralising-not using this accumulator?

Control it - Magic of the Right Forearm
 

You'll hear Tommy say the WHOLE right side goes through the shot. But Tommy controls the stroke with the Magic of the Right Forearm. BTW, the right shoulder is not an accumulator.

DG

your right about it not being an accumulator, i meant acc4 action via right shoulder (personnal thought process) to blastoff the chest that left arm. There does not seem to be any mention about this in his description. But, thanks to you, i understand now the term 'whole right side'!

Watch the "Chapter 1" video "The Pivot" to hear Tomasello talking about getting "the whole right Side" into the shot.

DG

I do not use a 10-2-d grip. My grip is very neutral and can be mistaken for weak.

I'm no longer experimenting with a bent left wrist; Unfortunately, clubhead speed doesn't always equal to club face control.

Hi guys,

I have been trying to learn TT's swing, apparently I come to the conclusion that there are three components in the downswing,

(a) a 'pulling the arrow from the quiver' move with the right hand - connects the right elbow to the hip and ensure the right shoulder moves downplane. Obviously, it also reverses the direction of the clubhead;

(b) a karate chop action - as shown in the video series;

(c) a swivel and hit action through the ball - controversial move but I think it helps ensures squaring the clubface.

In TT's Chapter on Power, he showed a move by swinging a stick with his right hand, I dunno if this is right arm swing or not. But what I seem to feel is that if (a) is missing, the power is all gone. So although TT describes the first downswing move as merely connecting the elbow to the hip (move 4 to 5 , I think), it is actually a pulling action with the right hand, move (a). If this first pulling action is gone, so does the power of the right hand swinging action as demostrated by TT.

Am I on the right track? Really appreciate any help to understand TT's methods.

cheers,

daniel