Is Hogan a swinger or switter?
 

I have always perceived Hogan to have a swinger's action, and therefore imagined that he uses a triple barrel stroke pattern (4,2,3). According to HK, a swinger doesn't use power accumulator #1 actively as a power source and one doesn't hit with the right hand in the sense of palmar flexing the right wrist during the downswing.

However, consider Hogan's comments in his book "Five Lessons".

On page 93, he states -: "What do the hands do? The answer is they do nothing active until after the arms have moved on the downswing to a position just above the level of the hips." That statement implies something "active" is going to happen to the hands after the club reaches the delivery position.

Then on page 99, he writes-: "On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand." On page 101 he writes-: "As far as supplying power goes, I wish I had three right hands!" Those two statements imply active right hand action. However, what could he mean by implying active right hand action? He obviously didn't straighten his right wrist through impact, so he wasn't using wrist palmar flexor power. Could he have been releasing power accumulator #1 actively?

Jeff.

I'd say Hogan was an Arc of Approach Manipulated Hands Swinger with lots of #3 accumulator angle. So the arc he swings on is pretty "wide" and his plane angle is flat. As a result he got his right arm into it more to keep the club on the flat plane and swinging on the arc. You'll notice how "in" his hands are on both sides of the ball. People talk about how "left" Hogan swings through the ball. He swings pretty much IN on the backstroke too.

If you'll notice in any down the line footage you have Hogan keeps the butt of the club really low through the ball. There's probably some forces from the right arm working their to keep the butt low.

There's definitely some differences in Hogan's release vs. Els . . . check this footage. As a result their right arms are probably working differently . . . which impacts the rate of closure in the face. Hogan built his swing to not have the ball go left . . . which goes with lots of #3 angle and a flattish plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-1y8lEJUqo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZYS7Ud1cI

Feelings, nothing more than feelings
 

Sensing such strong Clubhead Lag can give one the impression that you need more support in their Right Hand and #3 PP to sustain the feel through Impact.

Nice one!!!

Hogan was in control of the cf in his action this enabled him to add as much right hand hit as he wanted...so switter

pistol

Can you provide some solid evidence that Hogan hit with his right hand? When did he hit, and how did he hit with the right hand?

Jeff.

Three of dem mittens
 

To suggest Hogan as a hitter or switter I think most people refer to the statement from Hogan himself that he wished he had more than one (three I think he said)of them...right hands that is. Far from conclusive, I know

Why is Hogan's right arm so bent at impact?

If Gregg McHatton walked around screaming he was a hitter I'd tell him he's got a good sense of humor.

Jeff

This is just my opinion based on what Hogan said about 3 right hand. i base my opinion on the position of the right hand being in an uncocked position in follow through. I see this as a result of his ability to control or "fight" the cf action on his left wrist all the way to impact and then over power it with the right hand working in a "karate chop" move. i know this goes against tgm principles and the notions of physics just my view

Pistol

Could you please expand on your explanation?

What do you mean by stating that the right hand is uncocked post-impact? I believe that the right wrist should be level (but bent) throughout the downswing and followthrough, and I cannot understand what you mean when you claim that Hogan uncocked his right wrist post-impact.

What do you mean when you state that the right hand must move in a karate-chop move/action through impact, and how does it overpower the left wrist through impact? It is my understanding that the left wrist is flat throughout the downswing (even while it is uncocking as a result of the release of power accumulator #2) and followthrough, and that the left wrist uncocking occurs secondary to centrifugal action, and not due to any right-sided (right forearm/hand) forces. I cannot imagine what it means when one states that the left wrist/hand is overpowered through impact - unless one is a flipper, who incorrectly straightens the right wrist through the impact zone. Hogan, obviously, didn't perform any right hand flipping action through the impact zone - based on photographic evidence.

mrodock

It is my impression that Hogan's right elbow is especially bent at impact because he rotated his pelvis to a very open position by impact, and simultantaneously maintained his right pitch elbow position in front of the right hip.

Jeff.

So what last time i checked you can move the right hand while the arm stays bent

Jeff
I am assuming you are asking about hogan later in his post accident days so look at some footage of that . The cf force eventually causes the left hand to begin to uncock my opinion is that he used his right hand as i stated like a karate chop at impact without losing the bend in his right wrist it has nothing to do with his forearm . Seems pretty obvious that the right wrist is in an uncocked position when the arms come back into view in the follow through on a DTL sequence.Just my opinion anyway

Pistol

I don't understand your point of view.

The word "cocked" implies a state of radial deviation of the wrist, and I believe that the right wrist never becomes cocked (radially deviated) during the backswing, and it remains level (neither cocked or uncocked). I think that the right wrist bends (dorsiflexes) during the backswing, and it remains bent during the downswing and the followthrough, even though the right elbow straightens. There may less bend in the right wrist at the end of the followthrough, but it shouldn't ever straighten fully (fully palmar flex).

Based on the above, I cannot understand how the right hand can independently power the downswing (via some type of karate-chop action).

Jeff.

I don't recall talking about the backswing at all but since you mention it most good players have an element of right wrist cock in their backswing however small it may be and if you can't understand my opinion on the right hand function at impact ask someone else they may give you the standard tgm textbook answer you seek and while you are at it ask all of them to do a break down of hogans swing components. With time you may get a lot of answers but i bet not one of them will be the same. i have seen four or five and simply they are not even close to each other so goodluck and check the footage yourself and explain away the uncocked right wrist position detailed in an earlier post to you

I still don't know what you mean by the right wrist being uncocked post-impact.

I have studied Hogan's swing in depth many times. Here is a series of photos showing his right wrist movements through the impact zone.



Let' see whether we can agree on the "reality" of what is happening to his right wrist.

Image 1 shows Hogan at impact. His right wrist is bent (dorsiflexed) and level (neither upcocked or downcocked).

Image 2 shows Hogan post-impact. His right wrist is still bent and level. I can see no evidence of palmar flexion of the right wrist or any cocking movements (either radial deviation or ulnar deviation) of the right wrist. So, in what sense do you claim that Hogan uncocked his right wrist during impact and thereby applied right hand power to the ball?

Image 3 is post-followthrough and I think that it demonstrates right hand pronation (which straightens the right wrist) and left hand supination, and I think that those movements represent the start of the finish swivel action.

Jeff.

Have you studied hitting? Hitting or switting isn't about thrusting with the right hand; instead, the right triceps.

Left handed version: Hitting or switting isn't about thrusting with the left hand; instead, the left triceps. (You know you are doing it the wrong way, right!?!)

Jeff I believe you are correct but I was not concerned you had an incomplete understanding of the topic at hand.

Good photo of hogan showing all the beginners how to swing but really jeff that photo shows absolutely nothing in regard to what i stated before. Get some footage of hogan from BEHIND/ DTL i.e masters footage, hogan dvd collection etc and freeze frame when the hands exit in the follow through and come back and tell me his right wrist is in a level state and it has nothing to do with the swivel It seems obvious that my eyes see totally different things to you and sincerely i am satisfied with my eyesight .This is only my opinion though so the only way i can describe to you is the right hand is accelerated at impact in a manner like it is working under and to the left of a firm left wrist while at the same time the right wrist maintains the bend

Hogan is able to maintain his right elbow bend deeper as a result of the trajectory of his right shoulder in my opinion. He stays in his angles or posture or whatever you want to call it and his arms stay WITH and ON his body all components in rhythm.

IN your opinion you think i am doing it the wrong way.How would you know?
Textbook stuff again according to the book and why would you think any other way is the wrong way? did someone tell you this is the only way? divine intervention? some people just simply have more ability and you can call it hands manipulated swinger if you like rather than switter either way is not important.Fact Hogan's right wrist exits in an uncocked position and simply cannot be explained according to the book so prove your 3 barrel swinger theory of Hogan

Pistol

I have the Augusta DTL footage, but I cannot produce the requisite number of freeze-frame images because the film camera frame rate was too fast to capture the necessary number of capture images.

You wrote-: "This is only my opinion though so the only way i can describe to you is the right hand is accelerated at impact in a manner like it is working under and to the left of a firm left wrist while at the same time the right wrist maintains the bend."

I think that are making a mistake when you state that the right hand is working under and to the left of a firm left wrist. That would imply that the right hand is supinating, when it its really pronating. What gives you the impression that the right hand is working under, and to the left, is the fact that Hogan turns his body/arms/hands leftwards immediately after impact and that changes the hand-viewing angle as viewed by a camera placed directly behind the golfer. It will give the "appearance" that the right hand is working under (supinating), when it is actually working over (pronating).

Secondly, this right hand pronation phenomenon does not occur during impact, and only occurs well after impact as part of the start of the finish swivel action, and I therefore think that it plays no power role during impact (when the right wrist is level and bent).

Jeff.

Funny how you can't manage to capture that part of his swing which is clearly evident in a lot of his post accident swings. Why? Simply because it would destroy your theory if you put it up on the forum then you would have come up with another excuse or another lame theory. The right hand is NOT REALLY supinating is it Jeff this is just another one of your medical bs lines and you are just stating the obvious about the right hand pronating well after impact and right at this moment the right wrist is showing the uncocked state

It isn't merely a semantics issue, those two things are in different countries.

Pure swingers don't want 3 right hands either so that would be 3 different planets

Pistol - you wrote-: "Funny how you can't manage to capture that part of his swing which is clearly evident in a lot of his post accident swings. Why? Simply because it would destroy your theory if you put it up on the forum then you would have come up with another excuse or another lame theory."

I couldn't capture a number of single frames in the immediate post-impact zone because there were none there - because all the DTL film/videos had too slow a frame/second speed (compared to the FO slo-mo movie I had of Hogan).

Your claim that I deliberately didn't produce those frames because it would destroy my theory is an unjustified insult to my neutral/scientific attitude with respect to my "goal of fully understanding the golf swing". I will no longer interact with you, and you are free to believe whatever you like.

Jeff.

Here you are running around on all golf forums putting up your pictures and now you expect me to believe you can't put up the evidence that Hogan was not a pure swinger.All you have is one face on footage to prove your theory that hogan was just a 3 barrel swinger which you go on about in Other Forums.How do you expect to fully understand what Hogan did ? How can anyone unless they can swing just like him and i leave you with this simple thruth Hogan said 3 RIGHT HANDS nothing else Not 3 Forearms Not 3 right index fingers Not 3 right sides

Why would Mr. Hogan want 3 right hands? Bucket?

Hogan's Wish
 

The Swinger's Right Arm (as sensed by Right Hand Pressure Points #1 and #3 via Right Elbow action / 6-C-2-C) is passive only in terms of Accelerating Thrust. It is not passive in terms of Extensor Action (right triceps supplying Non-Accelerating Thrust, i.e., Power Package Mass per 6-C-0 #2). Nor is it passive with respect to Clubhead Lag Pressure (2-C-0 #3). In these instances:

"Properly manipulated, Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate, including Extensor Action." [7-19]

In which case, perhaps Mr. Hogan should have wished for 100 -- or even 1,000 -- Right Hands.

:)

Some questions..

Also.. when the wrist uncocks on plane ,, and the pp 3 traces down and out.. That would need some participation of either the Pivot CF ing out or the right arm right?

I saw the very slow swing performed by Hogan Home video.. especially at the impact position.. I think It gave me alot of clues ..

1. I saw a little uncocking of left wrist and unbending of the right wrists..
2. I saw he deliberately speed up his right during extention. So is that active or passive?

Attachment 1130

Sorry a bit blurred but what you guys think?

Textbook answer and correct for a good 3 barrel swinger but the master ben hogan was better and found a way ( with his unique pivot ) to accelerate the right hand with the palmer extension/hand supinated combination in my opinion

Thank you very much. The brilliance of the man is all there to see:salut:

Yoda

Your explanation of "right hand power' makes more sense than any other explanation that I have seen proposed so far. I can readily understand the idea of the right triceps supplying non-accelerating thrust power to the bent right wrist through impact - especially with Hogan who had a very open pelvis at impact with his right elbow in front of his right hip and his right elbow still bent. I can envisage the right forearm powering through the impact zone against a bent right wrist (while continuously supplying extensor action).

What I cannot understand is the idea that Hogan powered his swing via a right hand uncocking phenomenon as proposed by Pistol, who claims that Hogan's right hand underwent a palmar extension/supination process through impact (right hand working under the left hand). The reason why I don't believe it comes from observation of Hogan's hand movements through impact (frontal view photos previously presented) and Hogan's own description in his book "Five Lessons". Here is a diagram from that book.



One can see that his left wrist is slightly arched at impact, and immediately thereafter Hogan describes the feeling of "supination" of the left hand, as can be seen in those diagrams. If the left hand is supinating post-impact as Hogan moves into his finish swivel action, then the right hand must be pronating over (not under) the left hand.

Jeff.

I found these two "real life" action photos of Hogan in Leadbetter''s book "The Fundamentals of Hogan" and I think that they shed light on Pistol's claim that Hogan's right hand went under the left hand post-impact.



As Hogan nears impact, his left wrist/hand is flat and rotating to a position that will be flat, level and vertical at impact. However, after impact his left hand must first move left-backwards while remaining vertical to the ground (as a result of the horizontal hinging action) and then move into a supination swivel position as demonstrated in this photo. Obviously, the right hand must be pronating over the left hand when the left hand is undergoing its supination swivel action, and the process of pronation straightens the bent right wrist.

Jeff.

just a book written for the ordinary golfer where most have a bent left wrist at impact Jeff and once again you are stating the obvious that the the right hand pronates over the left hand at the swivel stage due to momentum in the golfswing and the thruth is that if Hogan did what you are stating then his right wrist would not have the "uncocked" position immediately after the swivel and my statement of hogan's method of right hand acceleration late in downswing and impact does.You can go on about the medical terms if you like and i will be happy to oblige you with a debate on this as well.Of course it helps if you have the athletic coordination to pull these moves off.Your constant tirade of trying to disprove me is quite boring since you cannot explain the PHENOMENA in Hogan's swing:sleepy:

Now the gloves are off that is a BLANTANT mirepresentation of what i actually wrote The right hand acceleration occurs prior to impact in that direction:naughty:

Hogan really roll his arm alot in the backswing and then back to the throughswing.

I think the secret to his fade ,, is how the right arm is below the left. made evidently how the right elbow is on top of the backswing which made the club very laid back.. from that position.. nomatter how he swing left or go in to our
the result will be a light cut and a straight pull at worst.. because he whould leave the clubface pretty open no matter how hard he release.

Make any sense?
Just my 2 cents.