Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53544)

Pistol wrote in another thread-: "And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this. Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??"

This is my personal interpretation of what happened to Hogan's clubface at the end-backswing and early downswing.

I believe that Hogan's clubface was frequently slightly open at the end-backswing position, and I think that the main cause was his tendency to cup his left wrist at the end-backswing, which caused the clubshaft to slightly cross the line ( and point right-of-parallel), and also caused the clubface to open.

Here is a photo-example.



Image 1 shows that Hogan's club is slightly beyond parallel at the end-backswing, and pointing slightly to the right of target. I believe that he often ended up in that position because he had ultra-flexible wrists, that allowed his left wrist to upcock (radially deviate) >90 degrees at the end-backswing position. That large degree of radial deviation of his left wrist also caused some dorsiflexion of his left wrist so that his left wrist was slightly cupped at the end-backswing position, which caused his clubface to become slightly open. At the same time, his bent right wrist developed a small degree of radial deviation (upcocking).

I believed that Hogan closed his clubface at the very start of the downswing, so that it became neutral to the clubhead swingarc, by starting his downswing with a very assertive hip shift-rotation movement. That lower body movement caused his clubshaft to fall back/shallow-out, thereby flattening his left wrist - see image 2. When his left wrist became flat, then his clubface became neutral to the swingarc.

Interestingly, Jim Hardy claims that Hogan closed his clubface in the early downswing by means of a counterclockwise rotation of his left arm, that caused his right forearm to "twist and throw" the clubface into a closed position, and that also caused his right elbow to end up behind the right hip, instead of in-front of the right hip, in the mid-downwsing. However, I can see no evidence of any left arm counterclockwise rotation in image 2 or image 3, and no evidence to support Jim Hardy's belief that Hogan used an active right forearm "twist-and-throw" maneuver in his early downswing.

Here is another image demonstrating how Hogan shallowed his clubshaft at the start of the downswing and flattened his left wrist.



Image 1 show Hogan at the end-backswing and he has a slightly cupped left wrist. At the start of the downswing, he starts the downswing with a lower body pelvic shift-rotation movement (hip squaring action) that shallows his clubshaft and causes the clubhead to move backwards (away from the ball-target line) and that also flattens his left wrist. When his left wrist flattens, it automatically closes the clubface to the swingarc.

Here is a third image which clearly shows Hogan's clubface closing slightly at the very start of the downswing.



Image 1 shows that Hogan had a slightly cupped left wrist and a clubshaft that was slightly right-of-parallel at the end-backswing. That predisposes to a slightly open clubface. Image 2 shows Hogan at the very start of the downswing, and one can see his flat left wrist and see that his clubface is now parallel to the back of his flat left wrist, which means that it is neutral to the swingarc.

Jim McLean in his DVD series on Hogan's swing claims that Hogan kept his left wrist cupped in the downswing and he supplies visual evidence.



Image 1 is a close-up of Hogan's cupped left wrist when he is in a mid-downswing position. Image 2,3, 4 shows an early-Hogan sequence demonstrating the same phenomenon - maintaining a cupped left wrist in the downswing and an open clubface. I don't know whether this phenomenon was a feature of Hogan's early swingstyle or whether Hogan selectively kept his left wrist cupped during the downswing at certain times for a particular purpose. I am interested in informed opinions regarding this issue.

My opinions are always open to modification if forum members can provide alternative opinions supported by solid "evidence".

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53550)

Pistol

It is my biased opinion that you may have problems with respect to understanding cause-and-effect relationships in human biomechanics.

You seem to have difficulty understanding how a fast hip turn at the start of the downswing can cause the clubshaft to shallow-out/flatten. You also seem to have difficulty understanding how a flattening clubshaft at the top of the swing can produce forces that promote left wrist flattening. You state that a fast hip turn can increase cupping. It can if the clubshaft is kept across-the-line. However, Hogan's clubhead moved backwards (away from the ball-target line) so that his clubshaft became laid off at the start of the downswing, and that clubshaft movement makes it much more difficult to maintain a cupped left wrist. In fact, that clubshaft movement promotes the passive acquisition of a flat left wrist.

Also, whether a golfer decides to allow the left wrist to be flattened in response to forces that shallow/flatten the clubshaft is still under control by the golfer. It is obviously possible for a golfer to deliberately resist those forces and intentionally maintain a cupped wrist.

There is a second biomechanical phenomenon that promotes a flattening of the left wrist when the downswing starts with a fast hip shift-rotation movement. That fast lower body movement also causes the right elbow to be pulled rapidly down towards the right hip area, and because the right arm flying wedge remains intact, that right elbow movement causes the right forearm and right hand to be pulled down under the flattening clubshaft, which in turn promotes further flattening of the clubshaft - as can be seen in this photo.



Whether you find my biomechanical explanation credible, or not, the photos demonstrate the "reality" that Hogan's left wrist flattened at the start of the downswing, and this biomechanical event would cause the clubface to close slightly if the left wrist was previously cupped.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53561)

This is my last post that will be addressed to you. We live in parallel mental universes and we apparently cannot fruitfully interchange ideas. I am also tired of being subjected to your constant baiting and insults. This forum allows free discourse, and you are free to make insulting ad hominem comments, but I don't have to perpetuate your behaviour by personally responding to your posts.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53563)

The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.

WRONG

Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53544)

Pistol wrote in another thread-: "And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this. Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??"

This is my personal interpretation of what happened to Hogan's clubface at the end-backswing and early downswing.

I believe that Hogan's clubface was frequently slightly open at the end-backswing position, and I think that the main cause was his tendency to cup his left wrist at the end-backswing, which caused the clubshaft to slightly cross the line ( and point right-of-parallel), and also caused the clubface to open.

Here is a photo-example.



Image 1 shows that Hogan's club is slightly beyond parallel at the end-backswing, and pointing slightly to the right of target. I believe that he often ended up in that position because he had ultra-flexible wrists, that allowed his left wrist to upcock (radially deviate) >90 degrees at the end-backswing position. That large degree of radial deviation of his left wrist also caused some dorsiflexion of his left wrist so that his left wrist was slightly cupped at the end-backswing position, which caused his clubface to become slightly open. At the same time, his bent right wrist developed a small degree of radial deviation (upcocking).

I believed that Hogan closed his clubface at the very start of the downswing, so that it became neutral to the clubhead swingarc, by starting his downswing with a very assertive hip shift-rotation movement. That lower body movement caused his clubshaft to fall back/shallow-out, thereby flattening his left wrist - see image 2. When his left wrist became flat, then his clubface became neutral to the swingarc.

Interestingly, Jim Hardy claims that Hogan closed his clubface in the early downswing by means of a counterclockwise rotation of his left arm, that caused his right forearm to "twist and throw" the clubface into a closed position, and that also caused his right elbow to end up behind the right hip, instead of in-front of the right hip, in the mid-downwsing. However, I can see no evidence of any left arm counterclockwise rotation in image 2 or image 3, and no evidence to support Jim Hardy's belief that Hogan used an active right forearm "twist-and-throw" maneuver in his early downswing.

Here is another image demonstrating how Hogan shallowed his clubshaft at the start of the downswing and flattened his left wrist.



Image 1 show Hogan at the end-backswing and he has a slightly cupped left wrist. At the start of the downswing, he starts the downswing with a lower body pelvic shift-rotation movement (hip squaring action) that shallows his clubshaft and causes the clubhead to move backwards (away from the ball-target line) and that also flattens his left wrist. When his left wrist flattens, it automatically closes the clubface to the swingarc.

Here is a third image which clearly shows Hogan's clubface closing slightly at the very start of the downswing.



Image 1 shows that Hogan had a slightly cupped left wrist and a clubshaft that was slightly right-of-parallel at the end-backswing. That predisposes to a slightly open clubface. Image 2 shows Hogan at the very start of the downswing, and one can see his flat left wrist and see that his clubface is now parallel to the back of his flat left wrist, which means that it is neutral to the swingarc.

Jim McLean in his DVD series on Hogan's swing claims that Hogan kept his left wrist cupped in the downswing and he supplies visual evidence.



Image 1 is a close-up of Hogan's cupped left wrist when he is in a mid-downswing position. Image 2,3, 4 shows an early-Hogan sequence demonstrating the same phenomenon - maintaining a cupped left wrist in the downswing and an open clubface. I don't know whether this phenomenon was a feature of Hogan's early swingstyle or whether Hogan selectively kept his left wrist cupped during the downswing at certain times for a particular purpose. I am interested in informed opinions regarding this issue.

My opinions are always open to modification if forum members can provide alternative opinions supported by solid "evidence".

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 53571)

Jeff or anyone else,
I'd be interested if someone could clearly clarify for me what is meant by open and closed in relation to the swing arc. If at impact the left wrist is cupped then the face closes. If at impact the left wrist is arched the face is open. So how does the left wrist moving from cupped to flat at the top of the swing- create a closing motion of th clubface? Never understood this and I have never heard a reasonable explanation- look forward to understanding your perspective.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53563)

Dariusz

I am aware that you a serious student of Hogan's swing.

I therefore find it very surprising to read what you wrote- : "Sorry to say, but when looking at the photos I find it simply not natural that the sharp hip turn caused Hogan's elbow to move that far down."

Look at Hogan's swing video lesson, which you must have looked at many, many times. Are you really not convinced that Hogan's entire power package assembly was brought down to waist level as a result of his rapid lower body action. He demonstrates this "lower body move" repeatedly in this video lesson, and it is so easy to see his entire power package assembly moving as a single unit down to hip level, concurrently with his lower body action. In his "Five lessons" book he makes the same point of how the arms/hands get a "free ride" down to waist level. He is very definite about the upper limbs (arms/hands) being passive in the early downswing.

You also wrote-:"Do an experiment yourself - go to the top with a cupped left wrist and just turn your hips as quick as possible without trying to go low with the clubhead to the ground in urge to hit the ball - just hold the club and turn your hips - you'll observe that your cupped left wrist remains cupped despite the turn."

Of course my left wrist will remain cupped if I deliberately maintain a cupped left wrist. However, my left wrist flattens immmediately if I relax my left wrist and allow the left wrist to passively respond to forces that have a left wrist flattening effect. The key "feeling" is the "feeling" of leaving the club behind while the downswing is initiated. Hogan had ultra-flexible wrists and you can actually see his degree of left wrist lag increasing at the start of the downswing. I believe that the cause of that phenomenon is due to the combination of i) a sudden pull-down of the left arm (secondary to the lower body pivot action that initiates Hogan's downswing) and ii) very relaxed wrists. The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.

Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53600)

Dariusz

You wrote-: "I am more than sure that his right arm/forearm was intentionally involved in his motion."

How can you be sure? What are you actually seeing in his swing, and at what point of the downswing are you seeing "it" so that you can definitively conclude that Hogan is actively using his right arm/forearm?

You wrote-: "The more I look into Hogan's swing motion the more I believe in his "three right hands" comment; I think he was "above" those swingers/hitters criteria and sincerely am of the opinion that his downswing was a mixture of a dominant left side of the body (pulling) turboed by right arm/forearm/elbow/hand action."

I do not doubt your sincerity as a serious student of Hogan's swing. I just would like to know precisely what you mean when you state that you can see Hogan "using his right arm/forearm/elbow/hand to turbo his downswing." At what point in his downswing do you see this happening, and how can you incontrovertibly conclude that it is an active versus passive phenomenon. When I look at Hogan's swing (as in his swing video lesson) I see an incredibly fast downswing pivot action that throws the left arm off the chest wall with immense force/speed (release of power accumulator #4) in the mid-downswing. I then see his other power accumulators (#2 and #1) release ultra-fast in the late downswing. According to HK, the release of power accumulator #1 is passive in a swinger's action because the clubshaft is traveling so fast after the release of power accumulator #2 that the straightening right elbow simply allows the right forearm to keep up with the released clubshaft. HK seemingly implied that any "push" action by an active release of power accumulator #1 in the late downswing would not be advantageous because the clubshaft is already travelling at optimum speed due to a super-efficient sequential release of power accumulators #4 and then #2. How would an active push action release of power accumulator #1 be advantageous in a swinger who has an optimised swing? Yoda has stated that he can understand the "three right hand" concept as being an optimal isometric contraction of the right forearm muscles and right triceps muscle so that the right forearm can provide optimal support behind the clubshaft in the late downswing and at impact, and in that sense I can understand the "three right hands" concept (as a non-push, "keep-up", support action). However, you are seemingly implying that the right arm/forearm/hand can provide extra push power. The onus is on you to i) demonstrate how that is theoretically possible in a super-efficient swinger's swing (like Hogan's swing which I think can be accurately described as a triple barrel 4:2:3 swing) and ii) how you know with 100% certainty that Hogan is performing that active right hand action.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53623)

Maybe that is why Hogan "wished he had three right hands". He wished that he could get the club to move faster in the late downswing, but practical common-sense probably made him realize that his swing was already optimized for maximum clubhead speed generation., and that any attempt to add extra swing power in the late downswing was not practically possible for a swinger who had a perfected triple barrel 4:2;3 swing.

Originally Posted by pistol (Post 53611)

Dariusz
First off it is nice to see you have a great grasp on reality versus illusion and some interesting ideas on the right elbow position.
This is my opinion on the deal regarding Jim Hardy and how i see the right elbow position.
Hogan 1946 to accident had the right elbow well in front of his hip and maintained the left wrist cup and predominantly faded the ball with the odd hook thrown in according to Dr Cary Middlecoff .
Post accident and later footage 1960's in particular Hogan clearly changed his pivot and his hands move longitudinally out and down while his lateral shift is just finishing and in my opinion his knee action is part of the deal.
Now the right elbow moves into a deep pitch position early in the transition as a result of the knee action and the right hand /wrist/forearm throw that TT describes and this is why the right elbow "freezes" on the hip and some footage marginally behind while the pivot continues and Hogan gets that long right arm after impact.
Release and hold i describe this motion as the right hand releases down and out while the left hand holds.
This is my opinion why Hardy was fooled by the right elbow as it is still in a pitch and not punch position as it will " freeze" when this motion of the right hand/forearm karate chop is done correctly.
In Summary
Hogan 1946 to accident
very evident cup on left wrist with standard pivot and left arm dominant and not the master of his swing
Hogan later years
less evident cup on left wrist, different pivot/knee action and right arm dominant and master of his swing

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53612)

Dariusz

You wrote-: "during the second phase of downswing, he squares the clubface while still maintaining huge lag and his right hand goes into sort of palm-down position; I call it the conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag How do you explain this phenomenon without an active right arm ? not possible to do it, IMHO, by only pulling with the lead arm since it would bring inevitably his right arm away from his body at impact."

I am willing to take time to understand your viewpoint because I know that you are a serious student of Hogan's swing. However, I can only understand your viewpoint if you express it in sufficient detail that I can grasp what you are implying.

What do you mean by "squaring the clubface in the late downswing"?


I mean that the clubface is not square to the arc early just after transition (as e.g. per Hardy's "twist&throw" concept, the same that Mike LaBauve was teaching Jeff Quinney - famous "watch down move") and is not kept open to the arc almost until impact (as happens in case of Henry's Cotton crossover release term). What I see, Hogan squared his clubface just before entering the impact zone when his right hand seem to turn into a palm down position. It can be seen when his shaft is, more or less, in parallel to the ground position.


What do you mean by the "right palm-down" position?

Hogan had a weak right hand grip after the accident. In order to square the clubface with such a grip type you need to bring the right hand more on top of the grip - just as it is at address (we may presume that Hogan's clubface at address was square :) )


What do you mean by "conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag"?

Just as it is written. A person with a dominant left hand will try to maintain lag by maintaining left wrist cock angle until the angular momentum overcomes it. A person with a dominant right hand will concentrate on maintaining right wrist hinge angle, that is sort of an equivalent of left wrist cock angle - when left wrist cocks, right wrist hinges in a good grip.
The hip turn that starts the downswing (i.e. left side of the body action - remember Hogan's image of elastic tape glued to his left hip ?) is a pulling motion that can create by itself the left wrist cock. Supposing that Hogan used his right arm/elbow/forearm/hand to support the hit, he had to convert the left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag.
Sorry if my explanation is a bit clumsy, but English is not my native language...but I tried my best.

What do you mean when you state that the "right elbow moves independently more than the pivot suggests"? When does this happen? Are you implying that the right elbow moves independently, and out of synchrony, with its right arm flying wedge relationships?

It is interesting that you made this statement -:"not possible to do it by only pulling with the left arm"?

I wonder whether we have the same conception of HK"s description of a swinger's swing. It is my understanding that HK stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing - 4:2:3 - and that the release of power accumulator #1 is not active. From my perspective, that only means that power accumulator #1 doesn't apply additional "push" power over-and-beyond that required to supply continuous extensor action via PP#1 and more than is necessary for the right elbow to straighten at a rate that is synchronous with the left arm pulling away as a result of release of power accumulator #4.

Yoda can correct me if I am wrong. However, this is my perception of a swinger's downswing action - like Hogan's downswing action.

A swinger (who is not an arm swinger, but a body swinger) initiates the downswing with a downswing pivot action starting with the lower body and then involving the upper body. During the early/mid downswing, the torso moves as fast as the arms, so that the entire power package remains intact until the hands reach waist level. Then, the downswing pivot action subsides and that causes the left arm to be catapulted off the left shoulder area thus widening the angle between the left arm and upper chest wall between the shoulder sockets. From this time-point onwards the arms are moving faster than the torso, and this represents the "effect" of the release of power accumulator #4. When the left arm is moving faster than the torso, it is indeed pulling the grip end of the club in a longitudinal direction. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm is passive. During the mid downswing, when the distance between the left hand and the right shoulder is increasing as a result of the release of power accumulator #4, the power package structure remains intact and the right elbow is still bent at a right angle. I think that it is only possible to maintain these power package relationships if the right arm/forearm muscles are isometrically active. In other words, I believe that the right arm/forearm is very active in an isometric sense during the downswing, and it is only correct to state that the right arm/forearm is passive from an isotonic perspective (which means that the right triceps doesn't shorten and actively straighten the right elbow, and the right forearm flexor muscles do not shorten and palmar flex the right wrist). However, the right arm/forearm muscles must be very active from an isometric perspective for a golfer to maintain the right arm flying wedge relationships and to also maintain constant extensor action throughout the downwswing. I also believe that the isometric contraction of the right arm/forearm muscles allow a golfer to "direct" the right forearm to remain "on plane" and avoid a situation where the left arm flies away from the body during the mid-late downswing (as you implied). It is the right arm/forearm that keeps the clubshaft "on plane" during the downswing and that would not be possible if the right arm/forearm muscles are not actively contracting. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm muscles are supplying "push" power in the sense of actively releasing power accumulator #1. HK suggested in his TGM book that one shouldn't "pull" and "push" at the same time, which is why he stated that a standard swinger's action (non-right arm swinger's action) can only be a 3-barrel action (4:2;3) and not a 4-barrel action (4:1:2:3).

OK, of course Mr.Kelley was right. You can't pull and push in the same time, but with the same part of the body. As I said, it's very natural to pull the main body left when pushing the distal part of the body as a support...just as it happens in lightathletic rotational throwers motions. The only one joining point between arms and the body are shoulder joints (that cannot move in all direction, BTW). It implies that an independent movement of arms (or better said forearms) and body is not only possible but even desirable in certain situations, especially if the role of them as distal parts of the body is limited e.g. by having upper parts of arms connected eliminating the undesirable impact of elbow joints.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 53625)

Great thread; lots to learn here. Thanks to all who are participating.

:salut:

Jeff, I understand and agree with your premise regarding the Swinger's passive Right Arm participation. But for me, it does not explain Hogan's desire for "three right hands". In fact, the whole notion of 'passive right arm' conflicts with it.

Here's my view:

As do all good players, Hogan sensed tremendous Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure from Release to the end of the Follow-Through ('Through the Ball' per 7-24). He felt this Lag Pressure (Acceleration Rate / 2-M-2 #1) in his #3 Pressure Point (first joint of the Right Hand forefinger) and wanted more. Alas, since Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate (7-19), there was no 'more' to get. Thus, with only one right hand, Hogan felt deficient.

Further, though Clubhead Lag Pressure only indirectly drives (7-11) the Club through Impact, it is nonetheless a dominant Feel. In fact, creating and maintaining this Lag Pressure (1-L #7) is no less than The Secret of Golf (6-C-2-0 / - A). And this indirect drive at Pressure Point #3 -- Right Hand -- is transmitted via the passive Power Accumulator #1 -- Right Elbow (6-C-2-C / 10-11-0-3).

All of which explains the Swinger's Feel ("describable sensation" per 1-J and 3-B) of the "stiff-wristed Right Forearm Slap" (Major Basic Stroke / 10-3-B) and the mantra of The Golfing Machine:

Sustain the Lag! [3-F-7-B]

:golfcart2:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53627)

I presume that when you state "stiff-wristed right forearm slap" that you are not implying an active release of power accumulator #1 (due to an isotonic contraction of the right triceps muscle), but rather a well-sequenced release of power accumulator #4, and then PA #2, synchronously combined with the optimum amount of isometric contraction of the right arm/forearm muscles that allows a golfer to sustain the lag.

Originally Posted by Dariusz J. (Post 53630)

Yoda, I'd love to understand your version . . . I believe it may be another top post about Hogan . . . :)

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53647)

Yoda

I would also be interested in your opinion as to whether a Tom Tomasello-style "right arm throw" action is suitable for right arm-swingers, who do not use the downswing pivot action to release power accumulator #4. Tom Tomasello stated . . .

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53647)

The question then becomes - does the right arm/forearm also cause an active release of power accumulator #1 in a right arm swinger's action, or is the right arm swinger's action still a triple barrel (4:2:3) swing action?

Originally Posted by strav (Post 53653)

I believe Hogan qualified his “three right hands” statement with the following paragraph.

“On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand. But this is only half the story. HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you also will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT. “
(Lesson 4 page 99)

In the paragraph above he appears more concerned with the left not doing its job (going to sleep) and being overpowered by the right rather than being worried about a deficient right hand. He also wanted the “…right hand in a position to perform its share of the work but no more than its equal share”. (Lesson 1 p24). Here again he appears more concerned about the right hand dominating rather than it being deficient.

Given equal strength in both hands, if he desired the power of three right hands he must have also desired the power of three left hands (“the left is a power hand, too.”) so that the right hand did not dominate and in order to achieve his objective, which was to “HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS.”

Originally Posted by Dariusz J. (Post 53659)

http://www.julesalexander.com/hogan.html

Jeff, I am not sure how to upload photos on this Forum. Call me a PC laic and you won't be far from the truth :eyes: if I knew how to do it from my PC collection I'd give the evidence of my way of thinking for you.

There is a ton of photos of post-accident Hogan that support what I've written (such as e.g. the photo from Jules Alexander site to which I included the link above with). Jim McLean's version from the BH Collection is not even close to the original. Please look even at the photo you put in your post - pay special attention to where the V on the right hand grip is pointing - there is a huge difference still visible (although the Hogan's photo is of bad quality).

Before-secret Hogan wanted to deliver the clubface as open as possible since he believed it could tame his hooks. It did not work, as we all know. Post-secret, and specially post-accident Hogan appeared to do a completely reverse thing (which seemed to be totally counterintuitive) - to square the clubface earlier and maintain it square as long as possible (delayed post-impact swivel and swinging left with an angled hinge); the whole question is if you are able to do it with only left arm pulling...I do not believe it is so easy and so efficient comparing to the right forearm support while swinging the club around...

Cheers

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53663)

Dariusz

It is very easy to link to photos so that they appear in your text message. There should be a series of formattiing choices at the top of this window, and the one choice is a mountain with a yellow colored sky. If you hover your mouse arrow above that "picture" it should state "insert image". You simply have to click on that "insert image" link and insert your url link.

If you cannot find the "extra" formatting options, got to UserCP => click on "edit options" => got to miscellaneous options at the bottom, and then choose "standard editor".

Regarding that Jules Alexander photo, it doesn't show the clubshaft at the delivery position. The clubshaft is already well into that part of the downswing called the "release swivel" phase and during this phase of the downswing, the left hand and clubface will undergo a 90 degree rotation into impact. During that 90 degree rotation phase, the back of the left hand will swivel so that it faces the target and it will also face groundwards if the golfer is hitting down on the ball. It is perfectly normal for the clubface, and back of the left hand, to be facing slightly groundwards during the release swivel phase of the downswing - and this applies to all good golfers, and not only Hogan.

I think that you would benefit greatly if you did what I did 2 months ago - become an avid student of TGM. It has changed my understanding of the golf swing in many ways, even though I still have a lot to learn. Then, you wouldn't write-: "to square the clubface earlier and maintain it square as long as possible (delayed post-impact swivel and swinging left with an angled hinge); the whole question is if you are able to do it with only left arm pulling...I do not believe it is so easy and so efficient comparing to the right forearm support while swinging the club around..." I think that you have an incomplete/ wrong conception of the golf swing. A swinger may "pull" the club longitudinally with the left arm, but the right forearm and PP#3 control the clubshaft to ensure that it is on plane during the downswing, while the left hand controls the clubface through impact. I don't believe that a golfer should ever "hold" the clubface square as long as possible. In HK's terms, that represents "steering", which is a significant mistake. The clubface should always come into impact with a slightly open clubface, and a good golfer controls its rate of closure through impact/followthrough via a hinging action, which is under the control of the back of the left hand, but biomechanically operant at the level of the left shoulder socket. Any post-impact swiveling action occurs after the followthrough phase of the swing.

Here is a post-accident photo of Hogan posing - to demonstrate how he wanted the clubface to be slightly open when it reached the delivery position.



If you have "evidence" that Hogan changed his approach to deal with his lifelong hooking problem very late in his career, then could you please i) quote Hogan stating that he deliberately chose to close the clubface earlier in his downswing; and ii) explain how an earlier clubface closure action would be a good anti-hooking strategy.

Jeff.