Treat....Neal Lancaster, PGA Tour Veteran...a visit to the Creek
2-F
Regardless of where the Clubshaft and the Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweetspot - the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweetspot", or "Swing', Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted,"Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. except during impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa. So Clubhead "Feel" is Clubhead lag Pressure(6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0). If Lag pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel(intead of the sweetspot) toward Impact - that mysterious "Shank". When in doubt, "Turn" the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and the Sweetspot will be on the same Plane at Start Down. Both Planes always pass though the Lag Pressure Point. Study 6-C-2-A.
Annikan,
Let me cover most of the issues that I see and if needed and as time allows we can clean up any remaining issues on this.
Using the quote from 2-F and relating it to our discussion.
1) I'll give you credit that Homer's using the longitudinal center of gravity and sweetspot to mean the same thing. Whereas I was further defining the sweetspot as that point on the face of the club where the longitudinal center of gravity passes through (one point on the line of longitudinal center of gravity). So why your original post was more in line with Homer's writing and correct in that regard- I still prefer my distinction and clarification, as his could infer that if you hit the ball half way up the shaft with the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (LCG)-Sweetspot- that you would miss the ball with the shaft but passed through (hit) the ball with the LCG.
2) In regards to your original post "Hinge Action - Clubface" "Swivel - Clubshaft rotating around sweetspot". Again, strictly from the 2-F quote- Homer's saying the Clubshaft is rotating around the sweetspot throughout the swing.
Two othe clarifying issues in regards to the 2-F quote and your original post.
1) If you or anyone is thinking that his comment regarding "Turn" has ANYTHING to do with Swivel, then they are mistaken. The only similarity would be that Swivel requires a turned position of the clubface, and in his 2-F quote he is saying if you're shanking it - because you lost lag pressure, that if during start down, you turned the clubface so that the shaft and sweetspot were on the same plane- that if you did throw it- i.e. threw the shaft instead of the sensing and controlling the sweetspot with lag, that in that case you would also be throwing the sweetspot at the ball by default and you wouldn't shank from that situation.
2) Again, strictly speaking from his writing method- you have a point on one issue- in that he talks about the shaft rotating around the sweetspot "Except during impact"- which is the period of Hinge Action. However, that only makes sense in a very narrow context- impact is just one part of the overall circle- and nothing different or mysterious happens separately at impact compared to just before or after it.
In summary, I stand by my original post. In addition, your follow-up post added the quote from the book- but I wasn't clear if you were making additional points or what additional arguments you were making- however, I took the liberty to assume a couple of potential ones that I saw.
Last edited by Mike O : 11-05-2005 at 12:37 PM.
Reason: minor grammer corrections
2-F
But herein, unless otherwise noted,"Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N.
I see people often who think of the 'plane' as meaning the clubSHAFT. It is very important to understand the above is what Homer is talking about when he mentions 'plane'.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
I see people often who think of the 'plane' as meaning the clubSHAFT. It is very important to understand the above is what Homer is talking about when he mentions 'plane'.
Thank you for your distintion and clarification!!!
Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa.
So what is the means by which the shaft can travel on, or to and from?
Does it differ for swinging and hitting...If so...Why and How
I would love to hear what Dr. Collards has to say!!!!
BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane
There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS
Last edited by annikan skywalker : 11-05-2005 at 03:48 PM.
BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane
There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS
philly - I am talking about the 'invisible' plane - which boils down to the plane of 'motion', of forces in the swing. My personal take is that it is far better to simply monitor the path and plane of PP#1 during the entire motion, than to worry about the clubshaft, or to a certain extent, even the sweetspot.
The club only knows what the HANDS tell it and the ball only knows what the club tells it. By monitoring the path/plane of the hands, the pressure points in the hands, you don't need to worry about the shaft or sweetspot because they will 'follow' what the hands dictate.
Annikan - I disagree a bit that there is no 'the' plane because if you have maintained balance during the entire motion, chances are the hands, the pressure points, will have effectively stayed on a single plane of motion. They will 'orbit' the center of balance.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
philly - I am talking about the 'invisible' plane - which boils down to the plane of 'motion', of forces in the swing. My personal take is that it is far better to simply monitor the path and plane of PP#1 during the entire motion, than to worry about the clubshaft, or to a certain extent, even the sweetspot.
I believe Homer generally refers to the sweetspot plane - as discussed in 2-F. And did you mean pp#3? (just curious).
Originally Posted by EdZ
The club only knows what the HANDS tell it and the ball only knows what the club tells it. By monitoring the path/plane of the hands, the pressure points in the hands, you don't need to worry about the shaft or sweetspot because they will 'follow' what the hands dictate.
But Ed...what if the hands are monitoring the sweetspot during start up? I know for me, an offplane motion has a significantly different feel then onplane. More effort, etc. So....
Does the tail wag the dog or is it the other way around?
I believe Homer generally refers to the sweetspot plane - as discussed in 2-F. And did you mean pp#3? (just curious).
But Ed...what if the hands are monitoring the sweetspot during start up? I know for me, an offplane motion has a significantly different feel then onplane. More effort, etc. So....
Does the tail wag the dog or is it the other way around?
PP#3 is useful to monitor during the motion in part because it is the 'last link' in the chain and because of its relative (on plane rotation) relationship to PP#1. That said, for 'on plane' motion and for clubHEAD control, I find looking at the plane which PP#1 travels more helpful when looking at someones overall ability to stay on plane.
If you look at the tour players you will generally find many variations in how the clubSHAFT moves, shifts, but in many cases the hands, pp#1 in particular, will be at or close to zero shift. Important to note that I am not talking specifically of Homer's view of zero shift, in which the shaft/SS is considered - I'm simply looking at the hands at the top, at impact and a spot extending down the left wedge to the ground. In effect this is is a line drawn along the undersides of the arms at address, down to the ground.
A great photo posted by Mathew:
Furyk is a great example. His hands travel on a quite verticle plane with relatively little 'shift'. Someone like Appleby is also very 'on plane' from this same viewpoint, but simply with a less verticle plane angle, and in his case, also with a shaft/SS that is very close to a zero shift as defined by Homer
No doubt that there is a different feel to being on plane vs. off plane, however IF the wedges are set properly and STAY set, there is no need to monitor anything other than the hands and their travel. If your hands are on plane (in my view) but the club is not, you can certainly bet that the wedges are not in place!
The Flying Wedges, the imperatives - a shortcut to great golf
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
Homer:
"After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments."
Nevermind
If the downsing has plane shifts, which plane angle is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane?
Given that the shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at the end of the backstroke, no matter which shoulder turn is used, how can the rear shoulder move downplane at startdown, on anything but that plane?
Tongzilla
Your preselected plane will be your Basic Plane Angle (10-6). So if you are shifting from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane on the downstroke your hands and clubshaft should move towards that plane angle. Your Right Shoulder would never move onto the Elbow Plane because it's too shallow.
The rear shoulder can move on, above or below the established Turned Shuolder Plane (angle from ball to right shoulder at the top only, not during downstroke) during startdown.
Nevermind
In that example, shifting in the Downstroke from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane, which is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane (Basic Plane Angle)?
Tongzilla
Elbow Plane
Tong thanks for your patience.
So, taking what I’ve learnt and implanting our example into the Homer quote I get this.
After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the Elbow Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments.
Either it's impossible for the Elbow Plane to be the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane with either of those Shoulder Turns, or I'm still lost in the fog. You’ve already said that the right shoulder would never move onto the Elbow Plane, so I know it could never move precisely on that plane.
I can't see how any type of shoulder turn would allow the right shoulder to move toward impact precisely on any plane but the Turned Shoulder Plane (at Startdown and assuming that the plane angle has its Base Line on the Square Plane Line), but if you tell me that I need to understand 13-B and 12-C (I don't) to understand this quote, then I'll give it a rest until I've had another good read of my book.
Hybrid Mode
