Seve was 19 when he gave Johnny Miller a scare at the British Open in 1976.
He was/is the youngest of several golf professional brothers, and the nephew of Ramon Sota, probably the most successfull Spanish pro before him.
Manuel Ballesteros in particular was tipped for great things, that almost, but never quite materialised.
But their experience played no small part in grooming Seve for greatness.
He was told by them all from an early age that he was the best, yes even better than his hero Nicklaus.
Now I think if your brothers, especially Manuel, are near the top of the game in Europe, and they are hammering that into you from childhood, you are more than one up already.
Children love INVENTING, especially while PLAYING.
Maybe Seve's short game genius was learned while inventing and playing rather than WORKING at his short game.
Subconsciously rather than consciously.
I think Mac O'Grady did a great job with him, but by then doubt had already crept in. The '86 Masters, I think it was, was the beginning.
Musings of a Seve fan.
Children love INVENTING, especially while PLAYING.
Maybe Seve's short game genius was learned while inventing and playing rather than WORKING at his short game.
Subconsciously rather than consciously.
This pertains to my persistance with this subject. Can we get to a masters level short game (Yes, TGM Masters level), without a step by step approach. Is a 'subconscious' approach quicker, better, the same.
Sometimes, other 'methods' are derided. What do you guys think are the benefits of Seve's approach v/s TGM approach? Are they combatible? Different?
What are your thoughts on Seve, V.J? From a playing and teaching standpoint you have proven your excellence and understanding with TGM. Have you studied Seve? Is it (his approach) incombatible with TGM?
Learning Golf By Imitation, Feel and Trial and Error
Originally Posted by Homerson
Children love INVENTING, especially while PLAYING.
Maybe Seve's short game genius was learned while inventing and playing rather than WORKING at his short game.
Subconsciously rather than consciously.
This pertains to my persistance with this subject. Can we get to a masters level short game (Yes, TGM Masters level), without a step by step approach. Is a 'subconscious' approach quicker, better, the same.
Sometimes, other 'methods' are derided. What do you guys think are the benefits of Seve's approach v/s TGM approach? Are they combatible? Different?
What are your thoughts on Seve, V.J? From a playing and teaching standpoint you have proven your excellence and understanding with TGM. Have you studied Seve? Is it (his approach) incombatible with TGM?
Cheers,
I see no real difference in the way Seve learned to play versus other 'naturals' such as Bobby Jones and Sam Snead. Each learned a few basics -- grip, stance, and steady head -- and most of all, to 'swing the hands.' And each had effective models to imitate. Seve and Sam had their older brothers, and Bobby Jones had Stewart Maiden. Their natural action allowed them to sense early on the 'lag and drag' of centrifugal force and to swing 'through the ball' without breaking down the left wrist. If you can feel this, you can develop a fine game with little reliance on mechanics. If you can't, there are not enough mechanics in the world to get the job done.
Along the way, these Chosen Ones learned by trial and error to manipulate the feel of centrifugal 'throw-out' action to produce a variety of releases and pressures to control clubhead acceleration. And also, through more countless hours of experiementation, to sense through their hands minute differentiations in the clubface alignment and layback and the effects on ball behavior.
The end result of all this is that they learned to control the golf club -- face, head and shaft -- with their hands. That is the job of learning golf. Yes, it can be done -- more or less -- by 'feel' alone. But the sure way is to introduce precision mechanics to the process.
Two years ago a kid from Fulton, MS won the US KIDS WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. He was nine years old at the time and shoots underpar to win the tournament. He would ask me questions like "don't all balls fly at the same height?" or "do you see red lines going into the hole?" To me that kid doesn't have to be taught TGM the way one with less natural talent for the game must be.
I had a 5 Time winner on tour going through a major swing change. "Now it will take some time" I said to him. "Not for me. I do things with a golf club that other people can't." He wasn't being hostile or cocky, he was just stating his past experience with the game.
Although complex at first glance (and the 2nd,3rd,4th....) Homer's work is really quite simple. The book is clear in its approach to better golf and a great number of drills, practice procedures, and playing procedures are there for us to use.
People like Lynn, Ben, Alex, Noel, Gring, really bring the book to life. At the same time, you don't have to learn it or teach it just like someone else. Different personalities will teach TGM different ways, that is one of the built in freedoms of the system.
On the same note, teaching Joe the 20 handicapper-Eric the #40 player in the world-and Ross the 9 year old prodigy are all different. So...my opinion on learning mechanics (alignments for different shots) can be concious, subconcious, self taught, or learned from someone else. There is no difference as long as the end result (the shot coming off the way you intended) is the same.
FOR ME, mechanics create creativity. If I can't hit the shot I will try and figure out why. Is it because I don't believe I can? Been down that road and the signs says DEAD END for me. I always believe I can. Is it because I don't practice it enough? How many times do I have to hit it? 100,1000,10000. Only so much day light for me. So the stroke components of a shot are a "cheat sheet" if you will. I can select and try until it comes off correctly. I can monitor different pieces and play them into dependability. Pretty cool book!
I hope this helps. By the way, Seve's game was/is great. His full stoke, pitching, and putting are all in the book. Every time I think of him I think of that face of determination always present in the Ryder Cup. Even that can be found in Chapter 14. The only question is can we absorb and apply it.
Two years ago a kid from Fulton, MS won the US KIDS WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. He was nine years old at the time and shoots underpar to win the tournament. He would ask me questions like "don't all balls fly at the same height?" or "do you see red lines going into the hole?" To me that kid doesn't have to be taught TGM the way one with less natural talent for the game must be.
I had a 5 Time winner on tour going through a major swing change. "Now it will take some time" I said to him. "Not for me. I do things with a golf club that other people can't." He wasn't being hostile or cocky, he was just stating his past experience with the game.
Although complex at first glance (and the 2nd,3rd,4th....) Homer's work is really quite simple. The book is clear in its approach to better golf and a great number of drills, practice procedures, and playing procedures are there for us to use.
People like Lynn, Ben, Alex, Noel, Gring, really bring the book to life. At the same time, you don't have to learn it or teach it just like someone else. Different personalities will teach TGM different ways, that is one of the built in freedoms of the system.
On the same note, teaching Joe the 20 handicapper-Eric the #40 player in the world-and Ross the 9 year old prodigy are all different. So...my opinion on learning mechanics (alignments for different shots) can be concious, subconcious, self taught, or learned from someone else. There is no difference as long as the end result (the shot coming off the way you intended) is the same.
FOR ME, mechanics create creativity. If I can't hit the shot I will try and figure out why. Is it because I don't believe I can? Been down that road and the signs says DEAD END for me. I always believe I can. Is it because I don't practice it enough? How many times do I have to hit it? 100,1000,10000. Only so much day light for me. So the stroke components of a shot are a "cheat sheet" if you will. I can select and try until it comes off correctly. I can monitor different pieces and play them into dependability. Pretty cool book!
I hope this helps. By the way, Seve's game was/is great. His full stoke, pitching, and putting are all in the book. Every time I think of him I think of that face of determination always present in the Ryder Cup. Even that can be found in Chapter 14. The only question is can we absorb and apply it.
VJ
This is AWESOME!!! Superb post. Would you be willing to expand on this in ole Bucket's Forum? I have a few questions for you sir . . .
Hope you'll except the invite to come on over to the Romper Room and have a little chat?
Believe it or not, this is my approach to learning...I am a few laps behind though. My brain does not work anything like Seve's, but I think it is good to try and understand, especially from a teacher's standpoint as most of the better players are like minded(I'm guessing).
One final question!!! What can be learned(hinges, plane angles, delivery paths, loading & storing) from Seve practising with a 3 iron(short game)?
Hybrid Mode
