Teaching from the 7th Edition

[Delaware Golf]

Dave,
Martee makes a good point- Full Power- is it written in the context of pressure point pressure?- or is it written in the context of maximum accumulators? - or a maximum combination of both? - Your view/feedback? In relation to your post?

Martee,
Good comments- Put in a little different way or clarifying your comments/perspective:
1) TGM is essentially the Star System Triad- the Three Imperatives applying the Three functions through the Three Stations - if you're having that as your essential guide to teaching students to lower their scores then you're teaching TGM.
2) If you're arguing, promoting other specific issues of the golf swing i.e. your golf swing essentials - then you've become too narrow and haven't grasped the nature of TGM- that it allows for all kinds of variations.
3) Or another way that you like to say it - is to drop the Star System Triad as the starting point and only look at things below it or something specific. That's the perspective that makes your point clear- that if you're teaching TGM then you're teaching someone the book, otherwise in regards to teaching TGM to students in regards to working on improving their swing- there is no TGM way- it's wide open - that is under the Star System Triad.

Mike/Martee,

Appreciate your comments...

My perspective has to come from Tomasello...I believe some think Tomasello strayed from the true teachings of TGM...with the 7th edition information, I believe Tommy was really teaching from the book the way it's presented in the 7th edition. Tommy was in contact with Homer up until the end, in fact, I believe Tommy was the one who arranged Homer's speaking engagment in front of the PGA the day he passed away. I guess some of you know that Homer passed away in Tomasello's arms.

I believe Tom taught 12-2-0 the way that it's written as a vehicle to understand the pivot in a swinging action. Tommy definitely followed building the swing in stages per 12-5-0...on cassette tape from my 1993 lessons with Tomasello on the driving range at Deer Track...Tommy had me start the downswing by triggering the downswing with the right forearm then generating the release with pivot thrust by way of the left hip (a pulling action of the left hip, review the Tomasello chapter series for left hip references). With the 7th edition comments in 12-5-3...for me, it makes sense what Tomasello was doing...he was making me aware of the left hip prior to adding Full Power with the uncocking action of the right elbow through the throwing action of the right forearm. Why? Tommy didn't want the student to apply so much attention to the uncocking of the right forearm that they would lose track of their pivot condition by stopping their left hip from sliding at the beginning of the downstroke or quit their left hip action in the rotational phase of release. Once you had the feel for the pivot, to add Full Power, Tomasello added the uncocking action of the right elbow through the right forearm, the pivot now just responded to the uncocking of the right elbow through the magic of the right forearm.

I recommend watching the chapter 5 video in the Tomasello chapter series before responding to this post. It probably wouldn't hurt to read 10-3-K, 10-D-3, 12-5-3 and 7-3 too.

On the lesson tee with Tomasello, I asked Tommy where in the book does it say, start the downswing with the right forearm (trust me, at the time I was as curious about this as many of you are), Tomasello's response, 7-3. Second comment from Tommy, The MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.

DG

[Mike O]

Mike/Martee,

Appreciate your comments...

My perspective has to come from Tomasello...I believe some think Tomasello strayed from the true teachings of TGM (Dave, Don't worry about what others think- you know what you know- that Tommy was a great teacher and helped you and others play the game well- you don't need to defend him- once you get past that you'll be much better)...

with the 7th edition information, I believe Tommy was really teaching from the book the way it's presented in the 7th edition. (I don't think TGM really changed much at all from 6th edition to 7th edition- the essence of the thing is exactly the same)

Tommy was in contact with Homer up until the end, in fact, I believe Tommy was the one who arranged Homer's speaking engagment in front of the PGA the day he passed away. I guess some of you know that Homer passed away in Tomasello's arms. (Agree)

Tom taught 12-2-0 the way that it's written as a vehicle to understand the pivot in a swinging action. (12-2-0 is just a basic pattern, an example if you will- to say that it's written "as a vehicle to understand the pivot is a huge jump- without some clarification of the context that you're talking)

Tommy definitely followed building the swing in stages per 12-5-0...on cassette tape from my 1993 lessons with Tomasello on the driving range at Deer Track...Tommy had me start the downswing by triggering the downswing with the right forearm then generating the release with pivot thrust by way of the left hip (a pulling action of the left hip, review the Tomasello chapter series for left hip references). With the 7th edition comments in 12-5-3...for me, it makes sense what Tomasello was doing...he was making me aware of the left hip prior to adding Full Power with the uncocking action of the right elbow through the throwing action of the right forearm. Why? Tommy didn't want the student to apply so much attention to the uncocking of the right forearm that they would lose track of their pivot condition by stopping their left hip from sliding at the beginning of the downstroke or quit their left hip action in the rotational phase of release. Once you had the feel for the pivot, to add Full Power, Tomasello added the uncocking action of the right elbow through the right forearm, the pivot now just responded to the uncocking of the right elbow through the magic of the right forearm. (Dave, nothing wrong with the description of your lesson or what you were working on- but in regards to 12-5-3- I would think "Full Power" just means the amount of thrust/pressure point pressure used during the procedure. Part of my reasoning for that is your reference to 10-3-D and Homer's use of 10-11-0 right after "Full Power" as opposed to a reference to 6-B - Accumulators)

I recommend watching the chapter 5 video in the Tomasello chapter series before responding to this post. It probably wouldn't hurt to read 10-3-K, 10-D-3, 12-5-3 and 7-3 too.

On the lesson tee with Tomasello, I asked Tommy where in the book does it say start the downswing with the right forearm (truat me, at the time I was as curious about this as many of you are), Tomasello's response, 7-3. Second comment from Tommy, The MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.

DG

Dave,
See my comments above in bold- for what their worth- not necessary to respond. The first comment in bold above is just a comment on the name of my post "Selling the System"- Homer knew that if "people" i.e. AI's, Students, himself, etc. were fanatically "Selling the System" it would hurt G.O.L.F.'s chances or delay its ultimate success- let them come to the system, if they are interested then help, answer, etc. but don't fanatically go out to convert everyone- it'll hurt the system, progress etc.

I think that advice is good advice- i.e. "you - Dave- will lose more people and have less people listening to you if everytime the topic of Tomasello comes up you "fanatically", "sell" the guy. Or repeatedly bring up a Golf Illustrated Article Interview. Just my opinion- but I offer it in a constructive way and one that I think would help you and Tom's legacy- at the same time I could be off base.

Finally, your comments on Tommy "following" the 7th edition- again- to me- I think you missed the point that Martee was pointing out. Tom taught the principles of TGM- any particular application for the lesson at the driving range might have all sorts of specific variations but you wouldn't want to lock yourself into any particular corner.

In the meantime, keep using your particular pattern as I know you've had some great success with it and the information that Tommy provided to you and others.

[Delaware Golf]

Dave,
See my comments above in bold- for what their worth- not necessary to respond. The first comment in bold above is just a comment on the name of my post "Selling the System"- Homer knew that if "people" i.e. AI's, Students, himself, etc. were fanatically "Selling the System" it would hurt G.O.L.F.'s chances or delay its ultimate success- let them come to the system, if they are interested then help, answer, etc. but don't fanatically go out to convert everyone- it'll hurt the system, progress etc.

I think that advice is good advice- i.e. "you - Dave- will lose more people and have less people listening to you if everytime the topic of Tomasello comes up you "fanatically", "sell" the guy. Or repeatedly bring up a Golf Illustrated Article Interview. Just my opinion- but I offer it in a constructive way and one that I think would help you and Tom's legacy- at the same time I could be off base.

Finally, your comments on Tommy "following" the 7th edition- again- to me- I think you missed the point that Martee was pointing out. Tom taught the principles of TGM- any particular application for the lesson at the driving range might have all sorts of specific variations but you wouldn't want to lock yourself into any particular corner.

In the meantime, keep using your particular pattern as I know you've had some great success with it and the information that Tommy provided to you and others.

Mike,

I'm not looking for sympathy...I'm looking for the truth. Hmmmm...and Tommy taught PGA/LPGA tour pros and high level amateurs.

Sell the System is going to hurt TGM, you got to be frickin kidding me...I have a degree in Marketing from one of the top business schools in the country and I'm going to listen that...yikes. And look where the system is today....over 20 years behind....go tell Donald Trump not to sell a GREAT SYSTEM...Gee Donald, we have got this great product....but if we try to sell it too much it will hurt it. That does not make sense at all.

TGM IS A BEAUTIFUL SYSTEM...the system has so much potential to influence other things. It has for me. Homer was a great researcher...if what you say is true, Homer wasn't much of a marketer/salesman, I really hate saying that...I have much respect for Homer.

DG

[jim_0068]

Delaware Golf

I find that using the Tomasello approach tends to replace some pivot power (for lack of a better term) with more right arm power.

I am currently employing a double shift swing using a maximum trigger delay and i achieve my swing speed and effortless type power to a well-trained pivot.

I have played with the Tomasello approach and find that i don't use my pivot as actively. If i do impact becomes erractic. However if i don't use the body as much and use more right arm tommy's approach (as he teaches it in the video) works quite well imo.

My distance/swing speed is similar in both patterns. I just prefer my pattern over this one. Also, would you be willing to make copies of your Tomasello tapes/videos that are not posted on this site for a fee? I have PM'd you before about this with no response. I am truly interested in learning more about what Tommy had to say but am out of information.

Thank you

[Delaware Golf]

Delaware Golf

I find that using the Tomasello approach tends to replace some pivot power (for lack of a better term) with more right arm power.

I am currently employing a double shift swing using a maximum trigger delay and i achieve my swing speed and effortless type power to a well-trained pivot.

I have played with the Tomasello approach and find that i don't use my pivot as actively. If i do impact becomes erractic. However if i don't use the body as much and use more right arm tommy's approach (as he teaches it in the video) works quite well imo.

My distance/swing speed is similar in both patterns. I just prefer my pattern over this one. Also, would you be willing to make copies of your Tomasello tapes/videos that are not posted on this site for a fee? I have PM'd you before about this with no response. I am truly interested in learning more about what Tommy had to say but am out of information.

Thank you

Jim,

Contact me again, I get quite a few emails and PMs. Sometimes, I lose track...

You're exactly right about increased accuracy as you allow the pivot to respond to the action of the right forearm. Great observation Jim...right on the money. I believe your accuracy would increase if you got rid of the double shift plane angle. Normally, the source of a double shift is a hip or shoulder takeaway instead of a right forearm takeaway. If you achieve a double shift through a right forearm takeaway you're trying to create a big shoulder turn with your shoulders (study 2-H)...just let the right forearm do the work and you will stay on the right path.

Tomasello used this method...going back it's right forearm and right hip (delayed hip action), right forearm takeaway and clear the right hip per 12-13-24, when the right hip stops you stop...downswing it's right forearm and left hip....downswing, the right forearm starts the downswing and you monitor the left hip, you don't want it to stop.

DG

[jim_0068]

Jim,

Contact me again, I get quite a few emails and PMs. Sometimes, I lose track...

I will PM again, thanks!

You're exactly right about increased accuracy as you allow the pivot to respond to the action of the right forearm. Great observation Jim...right on the money. I believe your accuracy would increase if you got rid of the double shift plane angle.

I never mentioned anything about accuracy. If anything i was discussing more about pivot activity and swing speed. Also i am one of the straightest ballstrikers i know. However some of my students are getting there . But i practice a lot to trace a straight plane which is why i hit the ball so straight.

Normally, the source of a double shift is a hip or shoulder takeaway instead of a right forearm takeaway.

You are correct. I use what i call "the combo." I use a shoulder turn takeaway to initiate my swing however i'm still tracing a straight line and then once my swing becomes relatively parallel to the plane line i immediately employ a right forearm "type" takeaway to take me to the top of the turned shoulder plane. I personally do not believe the right forearm takeaway is a good option for swingers. When i hit i very much use a right forearm takeaway, but in swinging i feel it is too "mechanical" and not flowing enough. But that's just me . Again i trace a straight plane line even with my double shift so i'm not worried about it.

[Mike O]

Mike,

I'm not looking for sympathy... (Didn't think I implied any sympathy in my post) I'm looking for the truth. (I commented on your original question- "full power" in relation to pressure points- not accumulators) Hmmmm...and Tommy taught PGA/LPGA tour pros and high level amateurs. (Really don't know how this relates to my post Dave- completely missed what this references)
Sell the System is going to hurt TGM, you got to be frickin kidding me...I have a degree in Marketing from one of the top business schools in the country and I'm going to listen that...yikes. And look where the system is today....over 20 years behind....go tell Donald Trump not to sell a GREAT SYSTEM...Gee Donald, we have got this great product....but if we try to sell it too much it will hurt it. That does not make sense at all. (Good point Dave, I was more relating to the issue that someone who's fanatical about an issue and wants and trys to sell it- might not realize when and how they turn people away/off. Your certainly correct that marketing and selling are key elements of a successful business)
TGM IS A BEAUTIFUL SYSTEM...the system has so much potential to influence other things. It has for me. Homer was a great researcher...if what you say is true, Homer wasn't much of a marketer/salesman, I really hate saying that...I have much respect for Homer. (I'd agree and his own assessment was that he was primarily a researcher- all the other things were areas that came out of necessity- once the research was "completed".)


DG

Dave, My comments above.

[Delaware Golf]

Dave, My comments above.

Turn people off who don't agree, most likely. Turn people off to a good thing or provide truthful results, highly unlikely.

Geez, shall we call Homer a fanatic. I think passion is the correct word. The term fanatic in this arena is a pot shot. I believe most of the golfers on this site are passionate about TGM... is that a bad thing. I can think of worse things....what to find some real fantics, turn on the nightly news.

DG

[phillygolf]

Turn people off who don't agree, most likely. Turn people off to a good thing or provide truthful results, highly unlikely.

Geez, shall we call Homer a fanatic. I think passion is the correct word. The term fanatic in this arena is a pot shot. I believe most of the golfers on this site are passionate about TGM... is that a bad thing. I can think of worse things....what to find some real fantics, turn on the nightly news.

DG

Dave,
Good to see ya but you're killing me!

I think Mike was merely tryingto provide an objective viewpoint. In any marketing program, the measurement is (and always will be) return. In marketing, turning those on that don't agree is key, no? Mike was part of your return and you're killing him!

I have never known a fanatic that wasnt passionate. Point being (I think), Homer was driven.


Oh yeah - how's the game?

[Delaware Golf]

[quote=phillygolf]Dave,
Good to see ya but you're killing me!

I think Mike was merely tryingto provide an objective viewpoint. In any marketing program, the measurement is (and always will be) return. In marketing, turning those on that don't agree is key, no? Mike was part of your return and you're killing him!

I have never known a fanatic that wasnt passionate. Point being (I think), Homer was driven.



Oh yeah - how's the game?[/QUOTE



Hmmmm...what do you have here....the tag team of Patrick and Michael,

You guys really humor me (remember the truth prevails)..who called who? Send in the calvary DG is at again.

I say do the research, watch the Tomasello videos (especially the chapter series #5 on "Power" make that FULL POWER)/read the Tomasello interview and now read the 7th edition, see 10-3-K, 10-3-D, 12-5-3. I think you will make a few connections.

No, the measurement in any marketing program is market share and sales. Without good operations it doesn't matter what kind of marketing program you have...a company needs to keep it's expenses/costs down so it can generate a good/great return/profit margin.

A little golfing trivia (most appropriate for this situation) - Nicklaus use to watch Hogan practice, Hogan never watched Nicklaus practice. Didn't need to...


DG