A reverse pivot is not so much a spine angle issue, but a malfunctioning hip turn. The weight shift to the rear leg is usually accomplished by the turning of the hips. A faulty hip turn leaves weight, or places or the load on the forward leg and the weight is "reverse" shifted to the back leg on the downstroke.
I can agree with that. It is the cause....
(....of a spine that tilts towards the target in the Backstroke...)
Question: are there or have there ever been any GREAT or even VERY GOOD players with a reverse-tilted spine at Impact?
I would crap myself right here right now if there were.
Not to say you can't get to a rearward tilted spine at Impact with a "tripod" type pivot....
If it works better for most people for every club and every shot is the real question I guess.
Believe me I don't like a MASSIVE sway either....you must have A center as Lynn said.
Choose what works best for yourself....
I don't know that anyone has ever HAD a beef (but who would I be talking about...) or could/would ever HAVE a beef with someone doing the "tripod" if it worked better for them.
Really that should go for anything that works for anyone.
Last edited by birdie_man : 11-05-2006 at 01:13 AM.
(....of a spine that tilts towards the target in the Backstroke...)
Question: are there or have there ever been any GREAT or even VERY GOOD players with a reverse-tilted spine at Impact?
I would crap myself right here right now if there were.
Not to say you can't get to a rearward tilted spine at Impact with a "tripod" type pivot....
If it works better for most people for every club and every shot is the real question I guess.
Believe me I don't like a MASSIVE sway either....you must have A center as Lynn said.
Choose what works best for yourself....
I don't know that anyone has ever HAD a beef (but who would I be talking about...) or could/would ever HAVE a beef with someone doing the "tripod" if it worked better for them.
Really that should go for anything that works for anyone.
The real question as you put it is this-how would a machine built like a human do it?
Why consider everyones abilities, habits, limitations? It just leads to band-aids i.e. I can't do X so I'll do Y cause that works better for me. X is the way whether the golfing public can do it or not.
The real question as you put it is this-how would a machine built like a human do it?
But humans aren't machines....and Homer's machine looks nothing like a human.
It's theoretical man.....I mean.....it's all logical really...
1L: "The Post may turn (Pivot) but does not "sway" or "bob."
Very logical in theory (esp. for a machine)....but theory none the less.
I know it's Homer etc. etc.....but it's theory...what can I say.
...
I'm not even gonna sit here and argue what I think works best most of the time....that one we've been thru in depth.....all it'll ever do is go back and fourth.
All I can really ever say is do what works for you....if you've given each a good honest try and something works better for you then that would be good enough for me...and should be good enough for anyone.
Whatever works......
I mean, you can throw as much theory and "Homer says" and other junk at it as you want but the bottom line is I want my ball further and straighter down the fairway from shot to shot and I'll do whatever does that for me.
I don't see why you'd want it any other way.
Quote:
Why consider everyones abilities, habits, limitations? It just leads to band-aids i.e. I can't do X so I'll do Y cause that works better for me. X is the way whether the golfing public can do it or not.
Uncompensated, precise, that is TGM to me.
That's the thing tho....
And it relates to what I said above.....
That's only if you take this all as more than theory.
Homer was the man yes....
But what is uncompensated, ideal, perfect, etc? It's debateable.....
I don't even know what else to say but I hope you get my point.
Quote:
Golf instruction is another topic.
In a way, it's one facet of the topic.....
i.e. swing training vs. long-term swing goals....
i.e. if a student reverse pivots get em to turn their left shoulder over their right knee in the backswing to train the pivot....then once that's trained you can teach em whatever pivot you want. And no I don't think a "tripod" is always the best long-term goal.
It is not the 'look of the back' on the backstroke viewed from the front....
Whilst it hard to precisely draw the spine from the front view without the rear pictures - this will be pretty close and useful for demonstration purposes.
Where did you get the Snead photo? Is there an entire sequence?
Matt
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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
Where did you get the Snead photo? Is there an entire sequence?
I'll answer for Mathew.
Annikan provided the photo at my request to begin a thread earlier this year. If he has the entire sequence, I'm sure he would be happy to post it.
The point was to make obvious the true direction of the spine tilt in the Start-Up and Backstroke, i.e., the bottom moves slightly away from the Target with the Weight Shift (a Hip Motion) as the Head remains steady. It is the Standard Pivot (10-12-A) and Standard Hip Turn (free Turn and Weight Shift / 10-14-A) illustrated in Photo 9-1-5 of The Golfing Machine. It is not a Reverse Pivot.
In contrast, some instructors -- perhaps even most -- teach that the top of the spine tilts away from the Target in the Backstroke. They label the move as an "athletic" Pivot. I label it a Sway.
Look again this rear-view photo of Sam Snead and draw your own conclusion.
But humans aren't machines....and Homer's machine looks nothing like a human.
It's theoretical man.....I mean.....it's all logical really...
1L: "The Post may turn (Pivot) but does not "sway" or "bob."
Very logical in theory (esp. for a machine)....but theory none the less.
I know it's Homer etc. etc.....but it's theory...what can I say.
From Columbia Encyclopedia : "Machine, any arrangement of stationary and moving mechanical parts used to perform some useful work or a specialized task"
Humans ARE machines.
Gravity is another theory, but accepted as fact.
At the end of the day we either accept a theory as fact-like gravity-or deny it because the theory doesn't seem to fit the evidence we observe i.e. when I try this I don't seem to hit the ball as well as this other way.
The preface of the book is the heart of it all, IMO. I have accepted the idea that for human shaped golfers, there is only one golf stroke, period. It may not work best for ME, but that doesn't contradict the idea.
Uncompensated, ideal, precision,-like PING Man. It's not debateable.
The preface of the book is the heart of it all, IMO. I have accepted the idea that for human shaped golfers, there is only one golf stroke, period. It may not work best for ME, but that doesn't contradict the idea.
But it must "work" for you, Sonic. That's because the "One Stroke" described in The Preface refers to its Geometry, i.e, the relationship of the Circle (Clubhead Orbit / 2-N-0) to the Plane Line.
Happily, the Stroke Pattern used to accomplish that essential Geometry is entirely the player's option. And here the choices are virtually unlimited.
But it must "work" for you, Sonic. That's because the "One Stroke" described in The Preface refers to its Geometry, i.e, the relationship of the Circle (Clubhead Orbit / 2-N-0) to the Plane Line.
Happily, the Stroke Pattern used to accomplish that essential Geometry is entirely the player's option. And here the choices are virtually unlimited.
Thanks for clarifying Yoda. I think what I meant to convey was that Homer's preference (wrt the pivot centre) for accomplishing that geometry would be a centered head that swivels but does not sway nor bob. Now I may not be able to pull that off physically but nonetheless,,, its the preference. Make sense?
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