1)Stationary head of course is the Uncompensated Version of the pivot, As long as the width caused by the bent right wrist, shoulder height position during impact head position is constant, its a more or less "perfect" impact.
This of course is the Golfing Machine answer. I think there is more to it tho.
We've been through this one already BTW.
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other things like trying to coil the torso, the concious or unconcious need to feel positive weight and momentum transfer, such and such, either can be merely a matter of what you want to feel. Most of this type of head position will in evitably need to bob slightly to the correct impact alignments for a solid impact, or make other compensation. But it does not mean its wrong. alot of great legends does that.
Coolcool. I don't think it's just there to accomodate a feel I want to have in my stroke tho.
Assuming we're on the same page, we're talkin about a few inches of head movement here. (if we're still talking about a Centered motion..."base of neck" Center)
I'm usually not aware of or concerned about any head movement unless I stop and really try to monitor it.
So it really feels like nothing to me (err at least not like you describe it or for those reasons)...
If anything, I find it feels athletic. (and I mean the pivot that RESULTS in the head moving...the body position)
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And I think its an acceptable preference and compensation. though I feel its still compensating. you do not need to do that as the less movement in golf is efficiency.
Coolcool. You can think what you want.
I don't think it's that simple tho as I've been saying all along.
You say compensation...I say "compensation."
Last edited by birdie_man : 12-08-2006 at 07:01 PM.
Reason: Edited for clearer meaning.
Assuming we're on the same page, we're talkin about a few inches of head movement here. (if we're still talking about a Centered motion..."base of neck" Center)
It really feels like nothing to me (err at least not like that)...
A few inches is the difference between the sweet spot and a shank or even whiff. The difference between compression of the ball and hitting behind the ball. Inches are significant in the golf swing.
That said I think Jim Hardy was onto something when he said those that swing their arms upright (i.e. Watson) would benefit from some weight shift and consequent lateral head movement in the backswing (to give the arms enough time to swing down in the downswing) and those that swing their arms flatter (i.e. Hogan) should keep their weight centered and the head should not move.
As an aside I believe a really upright arm swing plane is less than ideal, but certainly works great for some.
Matt
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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
A few inches is the difference between the sweet spot and a shank or even whiff. The difference between compression of the ball and hitting behind the ball. Inches are significant in the golf swing.
That said I think Jim Hardy was onto something when he said those that swing their arms upright (i.e. Watson) would benefit from some weight shift and consequent lateral head movement in the backswing (to give the arms enough time to swing down in the downswing) and those that swing their arms flatter (i.e. Hogan) should keep their weight centered and the head should not move.
As an aside I believe a really upright arm swing plane is less than ideal, but certainly works great for some.
Matt
Not to beat a dead horse... but chin position is a primary reason for that difference. A non-swiveled chin forces the body to move off center in order to complete a full turn with the upright arm swing. Those who swing their arms flatter don't have as much of a 'collision' with the shoulder/chin and/or lesser arm/shoulder turn, so it isn't as big a factor.
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A few inches is the difference between the sweet spot and a shank or even whiff. The difference between compression of the ball and hitting behind the ball. Inches are significant in the golf swing.
Yes they are significant....and also are in this. You are right in that sense.
But this goes back to the "is it really that simple?" argument.
i.e. is it that simple that if the "Stationary Post" moves precision is lost? (flat-out)
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And besides, I only referenced the significance of a few inches in regards to the FEEL of head movement. I was saying that I didn't think the feel was very significant. I think the body position is tho.
It's arguable tho. (both of those points)
Anyway...I have not whiffed in a real long time, I'll tell you that buddy.
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That said I think Jim Hardy was onto something when he said those that swing their arms upright (i.e. Watson) would benefit from some weight shift and consequent lateral head movement in the backswing (to give the arms enough time to swing down in the downswing) and those that swing their arms flatter (i.e. Hogan) should keep their weight centered and the head should not move.
I don't understand the logic in that.
Last edited by birdie_man : 12-08-2006 at 07:06 PM.
Of course , I am not qualified to give any thesis .
But I think golf is a game, where there is no perfect options. To a very huge extend, its Comfort and feel preference, and maybe even Illusions.
As long as you find a way that the shoulder joint to club position have the same position and radius all the time, you hit good balls. John Daly, Jim Furyk.
However, Since you agree that TGM is geometrically correct.
Can you also agree that, The less thing you have to move or monitor is thus less compensation. I think That is the true meaning of what is compensation.
Or kindly explain what is your meaning of compensation, compensating for what we feel? This is the impression i got from your thesis.
The less thing you have to move,
1. The more confident you have to apply maximum lag pressure.
2. The less thing you have to monitor and train. And the more accurate you are from day to day thus less compensation.
Though I remember , something someone said, i think its very deep.
In Pivot controlled hands, Physics Precedes
Hand controlled pivot, Geometry precedes
So I believe, body controlled hands or people trying to use their body to generate power, will like to feel momentum transfer, thus the said phenomenum. Ben hogan pushing the right heel etc.
But at the end of the day. As long as you can strike the way you like it , ball after ball after ball . its your correct way.
Nothing to argue about really and not worth getting confused about.
David Orr didn't mind his students with a slight BOB. Why should us ?
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This video seems to illustrate very well the complications of moving the head:
Matt
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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
It shows the head move...doesn't prove anything really tho.
He did have more head movement back then too. (and he did do OK)
Yeah, I answer to M-dog. Watching this clip is disorientating, and I think it illustrates the amount of compensation necessary by the motor system in order to strike solid golf shots with head movement. Yeah, I'm sure he hit it extremely well. The question is whether the average player is giving up consistency by moving the head. For me personally, this clip is enough for me to try and keep my head as still as possible and feel that I have eliminated one element from my swing that can go wrong.
Certainly for another person this clip will not mean the same as it does to me, I think that's perfectly reasonable. That's the beauty of golf, with a lot of study and work we can design a golf swing that we feel makes sense and hopefully produces excellent results, head movement or not.
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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
He DID have quite a bit of head movement back then and I'd say his Pivot these days is better...
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This video does not give you a true representation of what the Tiger SEES tho.
You have to remember that Tiger's eyes move in the sockets throughout....and they will stay glued on the ball in the Backstroke...
The camera on the other hand only represents how the head moves. The camera basically shows what it would be like if his eyes could only look STRAIGHT out of the face. (so you'd look to the right of the ball as the head sways AND swivels in the Backstroke)
I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across.
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Try a Pivot like Tiger's and tell me if it's as disorienting as the video might make it seem.
Last edited by birdie_man : 12-11-2006 at 07:48 PM.
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