It is still not clear to me, because you state that the swivel is an independent roll of the hands. Independent of what? From my perspective, I can envisage the release swivel involving a 90 degree rotation of the left hand (from the delivery position to the impact position), but it is not clear to me that part of the rotation doesn't occur at the level of the left shoulder socket and orbiting arm. Likewise, when hitting short pitch shots, I can utilize different hinging actions which are not due to the pivot motion (which may be minimal), but due to an independent controlled left arm rotation at the level of the left shoulder socket +/- a certain degree of forearm rotation.
I believe the swivel is when the club face lays (parallel) on the inclined plane - back swing and follow through. The horizontal hinge action is at the bottom of the swing when the club face is more or less perpindicular to the plane slightly open, to square, to slightly closed). A lot easier to show in video or live than describe.
I have still not received an informative opinion that explains the biomechanical difference between a finish swivel action and horizontal hinging - with respect to the movement of the left hand.
Consider this particular problem from this angle.
Here is photo of Kevin Na's clubhead path through the impact zone.
One can see that his splined clubhead path demonstrates that he is swinging his clubshaft on the inclined plane and that he is tracing the base of the plane line post-impact. At the same time, his clubface has rotated counterclockwise while the clubshaft is travelling on the inclined plane - and this represents his horizontal hinging action. HK states that it occurs due to rotary forces operating at left shoulder level, and one can imagine that there is a hinge joint horizontally oriented at the level of the left shoulder - as demonstrated in this TGM photo.
The effect of this hinge action is that the back of the left hand supinates slightly while it is moving up the inclined plane. Supination is a rotary motion, which means that the left hand is rotating during this horizontal hinge action phenomenon. Tiger Woods describes this "feeling" as the feeling of turning the knuckles of the left hand towards the ground after impact. He is therefore aware of a rotation of the left hand. That left hand rotation (supination) is no different to the more complete rotation (supination) that occurs fractionally later in time (during the finish swivel) as the left hand supinates more fully so that the back of the left hand lies against the inclined plane. The only difference is that the first left hand rotation (during the followthrough) primarily occurs due a rotation of the left shoulder socket left-backwards (as part of the torso pivoting action) + rotation of the left arm/forearm unit at the left shoulder socket level, while the second left hand rotation (during the finish swivel) primarily occurs due to left elbow folding and left forearm fanning combined with an active pronation of the right forearm. Although the biomechanical driving mechanisms are different, surely the left hand is rotating (supinating) throughout the followthrough and finish phases of the swing, and it is really a continuous rotary movement.
I have still not received an informative opinion that explains the biomechanical difference between a finish swivel action and horizontal hinging - with respect to the movement of the left hand.
Jeff,
Like many things TGM, you may be making the application of hinging more complex than it really is. But keep working on the biomechanic aspects because there are opportunities for further learning there.
Homer differentiated Hinge Action from Swivel and even though they are tightly related, you can't describe swivel as a hinge action because they can be separate as well. For instance, you can have the appearance of a horizontal hinge swivel while executing angled hinging. Rhythm is intregral to the hinge action motion.
Also keep in mind that clubface motion differs for each hinge action. Horizontal is closing only, angled is simultaneous closing and layback, and vertical is layback only.
There will be a video up tonight of Jeff Hull demonstrating how he applies hinge action. The video was shot a few days ago at the ATT Classic while Jeff was on the practice range. It should help many peel a few layers off the onion.
__________________
Bagger
1-H "Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available - but separately, and probably endlessly." Homer Kelly
Bagger - I realize that one can choose not to have roll action (horizontal hinging) during the followthrough phase of the swing and that one can instead choose a non-roll action (angled hinging) or reverse-roll action (vertical hinging). However, I am interested in the biomechanics of left hand "roll" in the horizontal hinging action and in learning whether the left hand "roll" of horizontal hinging is any different to the left hand "roll" that occurs moments later during the finish swivel action, or whether they are a seamless left hand rolling action (occurring due to different biomechanical actions at different anatomical/biomechnanical levels).
I look forward to learning more from your "new" Jeff Hull swing video - when it becomes available.
A foot before contact watch the club head go form open to close after contact. That is the Horizontal hinge. Just like a door opeing and closing. The left arm has not swiveled.
As both arms go to straight the left arm swivels the the club face back on the inclined plane. Pretty amazing that Homer Kelley.
I have still not received an informative opinion that explains the biomechanical difference between a finish swivel action and horizontal hinging - with respect to the movement of the left hand.
Consider this particular problem from this angle.
Here is photo of Kevin Na's clubhead path through the impact zone.
One can see that his splined clubhead path demonstrates that he is swinging his clubshaft on the inclined plane and that he is tracing the base of the plane line post-impact. At the same time, his clubface has rotated counterclockwise while the clubshaft is travelling on the inclined plane - and this represents his horizontal hinging action. HK states that it occurs due to rotary forces operating at left shoulder level, and one can imagine that there is a hinge joint horizontally oriented at the level of the left shoulder - as demonstrated in this TGM photo.
The effect of this hinge action is that the back of the left hand supinates slightly while it is moving up the inclined plane. Supination is a rotary motion, which means that the left hand is rotating during this horizontal hinge action phenomenon. Tiger Woods describes this "feeling" as the feeling of turning the knuckles of the left hand towards the ground after impact. He is therefore aware of a rotation of the left hand. That left hand rotation (supination) is no different to the more complete rotation (supination) that occurs fractionally later in time (during the finish swivel) as the left hand supinates more fully so that the back of the left hand lies against the inclined plane. The only difference is that the first left hand rotation (during the followthrough) primarily occurs due a rotation of the left shoulder socket left-backwards (as part of the torso pivoting action) + rotation of the left arm/forearm unit at the left shoulder socket level, while the second left hand rotation (during the finish swivel) primarily occurs due to left elbow folding and left forearm fanning combined with an active pronation of the right forearm. Although the biomechanical driving mechanisms are different, surely the left hand is rotating (supinating) throughout the followthrough and finish phases of the swing, and it is really a continuous rotary movement.
Jeff.
Jeff . . . . I haven't read all of this but the picture that you put up of Kevin Nah is MAJOR shooting the hands and arms off the torso and swinging right. He has disrupted the #3 angle and the face will rotate fast as a result.
Hinging is simply holding your left wrist vertical to one of the basic planes (Vertical Horizontal and Angled). But your hinging is going to APPEAR different for each plane angle and the amoumt of #3 Angle you set (angle between left arm and shaft).
So it's really difficult to pin point hinging without considering the plane angle and #3 angle which are related. So Horizontal Hinging is going to look MUCH DIFFERENT on the Elbow Plane than the Turned Shoulder Plane. Why? Because the more #3 angle you set the more clubhead TRAVEL you get and the less face rotation for a given amount of roll.
That being said . . . if you are swinging down on the elbow plane and then disrupt #3 (on purpose or not) you have essential SHIFTED PLANES . . . which in turn is going to impact the rate of face closure . . . Homer said that "Plane shifts are hazardous." I would venture to say that the closer to the ball you get the MORE HAZARDOUS they become.
So some people may intentionally disrupt #3 by swinging "out to right field". Others may disrupt #3 for a variety of reasons unintentionally . . . standing up or Bobbing for example. So if you don't have a centered pivot and you RAISE UP (early extension as some say) . . . Bob . . . then you will disrupt #3 and the face may not perform as predictably as you intended.
Here's two examples . . . Furyk has major whacky shifting going on EARLY but once he gets to release point his #3 angle DOES NOT CHANGE. Els on the other hand raises the hands up through the ball and the face closes much faster. Both play GREAT golf . . . but there are obvious differences in the hand paths through the ball.
Furyk . . .
Els . . .
I would say there is a difference in the Delivery Lines here . . . One is using Arc of Approach . . . the other maybe Swinging on the Angle of Approach.
What you have stated makes a lot of sense - the amount of roll a golfer gets (during the horizontal hinging action) depends on the angle between the clubshaft and left arm (as seen from a DTL view).
Although HK states that the left hand is responsible for controlling the clubface during the hinging action, doesn't the degree of straightening/pronation of the right hand during the followthrough have a major effect on the hinging action.
Consider capture images from the Anthony Kim video.
I get the impression that his right hand is straightening and pronating during the followthrough. Doesn't that right hand action induce horizontal hinging by promoting a roll action during the followthrough period? Isn't that right hand action what Nick Bradley describes as a puck release - see the next photo?
What you have stated makes a lot of sense - the amount of roll a golfer gets (during the horizontal hinging action) depends on the angle between the clubshaft and left arm (as seen from a DTL view).
Although HK states that the left hand is responsible for controlling the clubface during the hinging action, doesn't the degree of straightening/pronation of the right hand during the followthrough have a major effect on the hinging action.
Consider capture images from the Anthony Kim video.
I get the impression that his right hand is straightening and pronating during the followthrough. Doesn't that right hand action induce horizontal hinging by promoting a roll action during the followthrough period? Isn't that right hand action what Nick Bradley describes as a puck release - see the next photo?
Jeff.
Left hand is responsible for clubface. It is possible to over-ride that condition by this puck move of Bradley. You lose flat, level , and vertical left wrist. You shorten the radius to the left wrist. You lose the rhythym component. The club is no longer in the plane of the left wrist cock.
DTL is the right view to examine #3. Face on would be better to see if his right wrist unbends as you describe. I would think that if Kim were doing so, we would see the shaft bending up around the wrist and up some plane rather than appearing to point to the plane line, still in rhythym with the left arm.
Hybrid Mode
