Right Arm Swing and 4 Barrel Swing

[pistol]

Pistol - I think that I may possibly understand your right hand karate chop action better.

You are seemingly describing a right wrist uncocking motion whereby the right wrist (while still bent) moves from a level position to an unccocked position (ulnar-deviated position).

If my understanding is correct, then I agree that the right wrist uncocks in Hogan's swing. However, I believe that i) the right wrist always uncocks in all good golfers' swings during the release of power accumulator #3 and that ii) the right wrist uncocking phenomenon is primarily a passive phenomenon. It is my understanding that during release of power accumulator #3, the wrists have to roll as the clubshaft comes into a straight-in-line alignment with the left arm, and that the primary power source for this phenomenon is the club's inherent momentum acquired during the release of power accumulator #2. I therefore think of the release of power accumulator #3 as being a "transfer power" phenomenon, rather than being primarily due to an active right hand uncocking action. I would be interested in learning of Yoda's opinion regarding this matter, and also whether he thinks that it relates to Hogan's statement that he wished he had "three right hands".

Bigwill - I can understand the idea of an "intent" to release the right wrist bend without actually releasing it. However, I think that the right wrist is actually released during the release of power accumulator #3, but that it is not released due to a right wrist palmar flexion action, but rather due to a right wrist ulnar-deviation action.

Here is a photo of Trevor Immleman during the followthrough phase of the swing.



One gains the "impression" that right hand is rolling under, and I think that it's merely due to fact that the right wrist passively deviates ulnarly during the final stage of the club's release action.

Jeff.

Nice photo Jeff and yes Immelmann gets a small amount showing when it exits shoulders on a dtl view and you are right it never really rolls under so he is more passive but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it

[Jeff]

Pistol - you wrote-: "---but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it".

I am amazed that you can infer the presence of active right hand muscle action simply by looking at that photo of Trevor Immelman, and I am equally amazed that you can conclude that Hogan had a tonne of active right hand action in his swing - simply by observing a swing video of his swing.

In terms of what represents active right hand action in Hogan's swing, you now seem to be referring to an active right wrist ulnar deviation uncocking action. Even if I were to accept your argument that active right forearm muscle were involved in Hogan's swing, the muscles that produce that particular right wrist 'karate-chop' action must be the forearm muscles that ulnarly deviate the wrist.

Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.



The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.

Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.

Jeff.

[Yoda]

Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.



The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.

Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.

"Toto . . . We're not in Kansas anymore!"

-- Dorothy
The Wizard of Oz

And Homer Kelley would be the first to approve (1-H):

"Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available -- but separately. And probably endlessly.""

Keep askin', Jeff.

We love ya, man!

[hg]

I am not sure but it looks like 3 right forearms/wrists at impact

[pistol]

Pistol - you wrote-: "---but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it".

I am amazed that you can infer the presence of active right hand muscle action simply by looking at that photo of Trevor Immelman, and I am equally amazed that you can conclude that Hogan had a tonne of active right hand action in his swing - simply by observing a swing video of his swing.

In terms of what represents active right hand action in Hogan's swing, you now seem to be referring to an active right wrist ulnar deviation uncocking action. Even if I were to accept your argument that active right forearm muscle were involved in Hogan's swing, the muscles that produce that particular right wrist 'karate-chop' action must be the forearm muscles that ulnarly deviate the wrist.

Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.



The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.

Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.

Jeff.

Jeff
Amazing interpretation of illusion versus reality that you seem to make . The right hand is amazing i want 3 for myself. So hogan states i wish i had 3 right hands but from what your implying he must have been off his face in La La land when he wrote that. I prefer to see the obvious that his swing changed to the point where his pivot ( read VJ T book) became automatic and the whole 3 right hands deal kicked in so he became a Hand conrolled Pivot player
I ask you this Jeff in which golfswing do forearm muscles not contract? Why would you want to even think about the forearm contracting? Why would you want to pull the club ? Don't you think your left forearm muscle would contract?
And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this.
Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??
Jeff i am waiting with much anticipation for your answers

http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/Be...0751-9910.html

This one is a great picture

[Bigwill]

Pistol - you wrote-: "---but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it".

I am amazed that you can infer the presence of active right hand muscle action simply by looking at that photo of Trevor Immelman, and I am equally amazed that you can conclude that Hogan had a tonne of active right hand action in his swing - simply by observing a swing video of his swing.

In terms of what represents active right hand action in Hogan's swing, you now seem to be referring to an active right wrist ulnar deviation uncocking action. Even if I were to accept your argument that active right forearm muscle were involved in Hogan's swing, the muscles that produce that particular right wrist 'karate-chop' action must be the forearm muscles that ulnarly deviate the wrist.

Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.



The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.

Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.

Jeff.

Jeff,

Since the right wrist is hyperextended in the backswing, why wouldn't the muscles involved in the downswing be the flexors?

Also, you stated earlier that the ulnar deviation is passive. Would that not negate the use of the muscles that do this (ul. dev.), or are you describing active/passive from the standpoint of intent, rather than an actual physical standpoint?

[dkerby]

NOTE THIS WELL: THE MUSCLES TO WORK WITH ARE THE
"INSIDE MAUSCLES" - THE MUSCLES THAT STRETCH ALONG
THE INSIDE OF THE LEGS AND THIGHTS, THE MUSCLES ALONG
THE INSIDE OF THE ARMS. Pg. 57 of the Five Lessons.

Hg - Thank you so much for the wounderful pictures that
you put up of Hogan.

V.J. Looking at the pictures, you can sure be proud of
the work that you have done.

[Jeff]

Jeff,

Since the right wrist is hyperextended in the backswing, why wouldn't the muscles involved in the downswing be the flexors?

Also, you stated earlier that the ulnar deviation is passive. Would that not negate the use of the muscles that do this (ul. dev.), or are you describing active/passive from the standpoint of intent, rather than an actual physical standpoint?

Bigwill

According to TGM teaching, the right wrist should be bent (dorsiflexed) during the backswing, and should remain bent during the entire downswing. Therefore, the right forearm flexor muscles do not have to contract isotonically in order to palmar flex the right wrist during the downswing. However, I think that they maintain a considerable amount of isometric tone so that the driven right forearm can apply steady pressure behind the clubshaft through the impact zone.

I personally think that the forearm muscles causing ulnar deviation are not isotonically active in a swinger's swing, and in that sense they are passive. I believe that the right wrist goes into ulnar deviation passively during the post-impact phase of the swing. However, Pistol claimed that Hogan actively forced his right wrist into ulnar deviation during the downswing, and I only produced that photograph to demonstrate which muscles would be isotonically involved if that fact could be proven to be true.

Jeff.

[Jeff]

Pistol

You wrote-: "And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this. Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??"

This is off-topic. I will start another thread to answer this question.

Jeff.

[pistol]

Pistol

You wrote-: "And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this. Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??"

This is off-topic. I will start another thread to answer this question.

Jeff.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff i think this would be a great topic on what happens to the clubface etc in different types of release triggers and how "pulling" or "pushing" affects the motions etc